This is a stupid question but I'm going to ask anyway thread

[Namikikyo]

TeaDidikai

A better explanation indeed.

That said, if you're talking about areas in which there are specific patrons, why would you want to be the one "pulling the strings"?

I never considered Patron deities in this, So far the only deity I've seen in Greek mythology for witchcraft or sorcery is.. well, Circe.

But I believe it makes me feel more in control.

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Why does your ability in this area stem from the self?

I can feel it. I work with energy and in my spare time I practice recognizing certian things. Like feeling without seeing it. When I do a spell or ritual that doesn't involve a deity, I feel it come from within me and use my energy or spirit to make it work.

When I work with a deity, I can feel them around me. It's stronger and over whelming as well as personalized depending on the deity. I can feel them whenever I pray, sing, dance, perform rituals or any dedication to them.

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Interesting. How many experiences have you had wherein what was fair and what was right did not match up?

Several and I chose what was right, No matter how many time I believed it should have been fair.

But that's life, it isn't always in black and white.

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Good luck with that. wink No insult intended, but you'll likely die of old age before you know everything about it.

I know! gonk I'm always being told this.

The key word will forever be: Try. crying

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Not silly. Just unrealistic. That said, as long as you ethically explore other open traditions, knock yourself out.

I know... emo But this is a good smack of reality, It just stings a bit.

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Curious position. I can think of a handful of traditions that would view this as shirking responsibility, for specific values of "wrong doings". Not only that- but it can sure be cathartic. wink

It really is..

I just never considered it responsibility, Just something that had to be done. I was happy when it worked.

 

[guardian_rose]

TeaDidikai

Problem with your assertion. Being a Druid was never a function of tradition or craft alone. It was a social role.

The society of the Gael, which would be the group in your example, is no longer constructed in a way that allows for Druids. They have been replaced by people bearing these strange titles, things like "MD", and "Architect", and "Attorney" and the like.

The perpetuation of cultural traditions =/= the perpetuation of cultural titles and the roles thereof.

I wouldn't exactly call the various tribes with their varying beliefs a society.
While I agree that most things that druids handled back in times past might be outsourced to other people with titles, we must not forget that the roll of teacher was also among the repertoire of the druids, including passing on regional traditions.

You mentioned earlier in another topic, I believe, about St. Patrick driving the snakes out of Ireland. You failed to mention that Gaelic traditions weren't completely driven from the Isles. To the Church's own admittance, the peoples of Ireland were very resistant to the church's efforts. Some could argue that the inclusion of some of the Celtic pantheon is a way in which the old tradition survives today.
My point here, is that, isn't it in all likelihood that druidism could exist today?  

[kage no neko]

If the people who were considered "druids" went into hiding..
If they came out today declaring they still hold the old traditions and whatever, who the hell would believe them?  

[TeaDidikai]

Namikikyo

But I believe it makes me feel more in control.

And if you aren't actually in control?

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I can feel it. I work with energy and in my spare time I practice recognizing certian things. Like feeling without seeing it. When I do a spell or ritual that doesn't involve a deity, I feel it come from within me and use my energy or spirit to make it work.

When I work with a deity, I can feel them around me. It's stronger and over whelming as well as personalized depending on the deity. I can feel them whenever I pray, sing, dance, perform rituals or any dedication to them.

What have you done to actually test this, beyond taking it at face value?

If it turns out that it is matter of filtering experiences in order to take credit for others work, what effect will that have on your practice?

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Several and I chose what was right, No matter how many time I believed it should have been fair.

But that's life, it isn't always in black and white.

You seem to have generated a contradiction in your ideology with that.

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I know! gonk I'm always being told this.

The key word will forever be: Try. crying

Maybe it's time to reevaluate the goal.

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I know... emo But this is a good smack of reality, It just stings a bit.

It'll wear off.

guardian_rose

I wouldn't exactly call the various tribes with their varying beliefs a society.

Ah, so only your concept of a Society applies to alien cultures. Good to know.

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While I agree that most things that druids handled back in times past might be outsourced to other people with titles, we must not forget that the roll of teacher was also among the repertoire of the druids, including passing on regional traditions.

In much the same way that Professors have taken such a role in the Universities.

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You mentioned earlier in another topic, I believe, about St. Patrick driving the snakes out of Ireland. You failed to mention that Gaelic traditions weren't completely driven from the Isles.

I mentioned a common explanation to a Catholic Folk Myth. It's also vaguely insulting to Anglicize the name of a people who have been under English rule and suffered much abuse at their hands.

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To the Church's own admittance, the peoples of Ireland were very resistant to the church's efforts. Some could argue that the inclusion of some of the Celtic pantheon is a way in which the old tradition survives today.

Only if said individuals were ignorant and indulging in Fluffy Historical Revisionism.

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My point here, is that, isn't it in all likelihood that druidism could exist today?

Nope. Not at all. The Culture has changed. There are no longer the social roles that facilitated the role of the Druid.

And Druidism is just absurd. It was a title, not a distinct lifestyle apart from the rest of the Celts.

Kage>> Problem with the assertion. This has nothing to do with beliefs. This has everything to do with social structure.

And you get into some pretty nasty Racism when you start projecting external sensibilities onto the Gael and other Celts.  

[guardian_rose]

TeaDidikai

guardian_rose

I wouldn't exactly call the various tribes with their varying beliefs a society.

Ah, so only your concept of a Society applies to alien cultures. Good to know.

Mongolia and China boarder each other. Yet, they are two different societies. Around the same time that the Celts from Gaul conquered Rome, Mongolians were warring with the Chinese. Even though the two cultures share similarities, they are not the same. This applies to the Celts, because their tribes were nomadic. Iron age sites have been found all over Europe. Sites as far east as Ukraine, as far south as Rome itself.
Archeological evidence has proven that each tribe had differences. Why else do we have Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic? Different societies. Many, many similarities.

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While I agree that most things that druids handled back in times past might be outsourced to other people with titles, we must not forget that the roll of teacher was also among the repertoire of the druids, including passing on regional traditions.

In much the same way that Professors have taken such a role in the Universities.
Again, I don't completely disagree. You have successfully defended an argument that druids as they were do not exist as they did then. Same goes for many kinds of leaders.
To a certain extent, as I mentioned before, druids may exist along a small village along the southern coast. Supposedly its only accessible by water. This does not mean all over Ireland or Europe.

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You mentioned earlier in another topic, I believe, about St. Patrick driving the snakes out of Ireland. You failed to mention that Gaelic traditions weren't completely driven from the Isles.

I mentioned a common explanation to a Catholic Folk Myth. It's also vaguely insulting to Anglicize the name of a people who have been under English rule and suffered much abuse at their hands.
Wow. Something we can agree on.

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To the Church's own admittance, the peoples of Ireland were very resistant to the church's efforts. Some could argue that the inclusion of some of the Celtic pantheon is a way in which the old tradition survives today.

Only if said individuals were ignorant and indulging in Fluffy Historical Revisionism.
First off, this was in no way a fluffy comment. Second, there are some saint's days that are celebrated almost identically to their gaelic counterparts. Another example is the preservation of the Tain.

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My point here, is that, isn't it in all likelihood that druidism could exist today?

Nope. Not at all. The Culture has changed. There are no longer the social roles that facilitated the role of the Druid.
News flash: cultures and societies change over time. Is our culture in the U.S. the same as it was 200 years ago? No? 100? How about 50? How about 20? The answer is no. Change happens.

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And Druidism is just absurd. It was a title, not a distinct lifestyle apart from the rest of the Celts.

It was a lifestyle and a title. Our source of evidence here comes from two places. It comes from the Tain, which, through a story shows splits in the society: warriors and druids. The second is from the Romans, who noted that the Gael's religious leaders, druids, were never in combat.  

[saint dreya]

guardian_rose

Why else do we have Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic? Different societies. Many, many similarities.

The gap between those two wasn't apparent in the Iron Age time frame. Additionally, they are addressed as Celtic because of linguistic similarities.

guardian_rose

To a certain extent, as I mentioned before, druids may exist along a small village along the southern coast. Supposedly its only accessible by water. This does not mean all over Ireland or Europe.

How? What practices can they validly claim direct descent from that culture, with little to no change, for over 2000 years? What sources are you drawing from to compare their practices to those of the original?

guardian_rose

News flash: cultures and societies change over time. Is our culture in the U.S. the same as it was 200 years ago? No? 100? How about 50? How about 20? The answer is no. Change happens.

Except where there is a definitive ending. The Druid line, practice and education ended, with little to no recorded tidbits for anyone to reliably recreate it. Ergo, it cannot simply be picked back up as it is "lost" to verifiable sources.

guardian_rose

It was a lifestyle and a title. Our source of evidence here comes from two places. It comes from the Tain, which, through a story shows splits in the society: warriors and druids.

And we have soldiers, sailors and priests in today's world. Some in point of fact that fulfill both sides (Chaplains). It is not their lifestyle, but their title and actions that are being defined.

guardian_rose

The second is from the Romans, who noted that the Gael's religious leaders, druids, were never in combat.

Which sources? Please keep in mind most Roman writers never went to Celtic territories, saw or spoke to a Celt, and any who did usually were writing propaganda for the folks back home. Most Roman literature hinges on the ethnocentrism they were known for.  

[Namikikyo]

TeaDidikai

And if you aren't actually in control?

Then this is best lie I've ever told myself, But I'd be okay with it. I like feeling like I'm in control, But I don't have a need to be.

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What have you done to actually test this, beyond taking it at face value?

No, I have not. Other then the experiances of working with myself, then working with a deity. There just seems to be a difference, But that's only from personal experiance. .__."

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If it turns out that it is matter of filtering experiences in order to take credit for others work, what effect will that have on your practice?

I think it would be a positive effect, And will give me the closure to leave Witchcraft and go into Hellenic Mystism.

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You seem to have generated a contradiction in your ideology with that.

That's one of the flaws I've been talking about, There's a couple more I have to fix too. But this has really allowed me to look at my ideology in a different light.

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Maybe it's time to reevaluate the goal.

That and a few other things.

 

[Gho the Girl]

Does anybody have an opinion on Goetia?  

[IH_Zero]

Gho the Girl

Does anybody have an opinion on Goetia?

As in The Book of the Goetia? Interesting, but not something I really want to screw around with. I like having my various bits, physical and spiritual, in working order and one piece.

Or is there some other use of the word I have yet to hear?  

[Nattfodd]

Gho the Girl

Does anybody have an opinion on Goetia?

It's wonderful. Depends on which publishing you get, though. They're all very good... though I should say, the Goetia isn't for everyone.  

[TeaDidikai]

guardian_rose

Mongolia and China boarder each other. Yet, they are two different societies.

And yet the Gael, who shared a common social structure, had organized boundaries and land rights under title- to say nothing of a common language and an overarching polticical structure couldn't possibly be considered a nation and thus can't be considered a society.

In short, I find your analogy flawed and your habit of randomly making up the meanings of words to be unappealing at best, insultingly racist at worst.

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Why else do we have Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic? Different societies. Many, many similarities.

Actually, the reason we have Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic is because Englishmen don't serve the courtesy of honoring cultural distinctions and thus they have misapplied the title of Gaelic to factions it shouldn't have been used to address.

P-Celts aren't Q-Celts, that's true enough, but stop misusing terms that in and of themselves are inaccurate to justify your position.

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You have successfully defended an argument that druids as they were do not exist as they did then. Same goes for many kinds of leaders.
To a certain extent, as I mentioned before, druids may exist along a small village along the southern coast.

I'm still waiting for you to prove this. I want you to demonstrate that this small village is still being lead under a King and bound by the Brehon, with a social cast that acts as it's intellegencia and goes by the title of Druid, rather than having it's people attend university for degrees in medicine, law, education, history etc- and that this king has bestowed a title upon the individual(s) who preform this function.

It's okay. I'll wait, though I would highly suggest you provide this before Cu gets here.

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Wow. Something we can agree on.

So why the ******** have you repeatedly done this?

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First off, this was in no way a fluffy comment.

Of course it is. It relies on Historical Revisionism.

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Second, there are some saint's days that are celebrated almost identically to their gaelic counterparts.

There you go again with that whole "I don't care what the Gael have to say about it, I think I will force my Anglicization upon them" thing.
Prove that these Saints weren't Saints.

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News flash: cultures and societies change over time. Is our culture in the U.S. the same as it was 200 years ago? No? 100? How about 50? How about 20? The answer is no. Change happens.

Yep. So why are you trying to perpetuate the notion that it hasn't?

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It was a lifestyle and a title.

Prove it.

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It comes from the Tain, which, through a story shows splits in the society: warriors and druids.

I'll wait for you to prove that the whole of the Gael were divided this way.

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The second is from the Romans, who noted that the Gael's religious leaders, druids, were never in combat.

And yet, we know that the title of Druid was assigned to great warriors.

We also know for a fact that the Druids were not merely the Religious leaders of the Gael, as many of them were... say it with me folks, "Doctors, Lawyers, Architects and Warriors", not just priests.

So, it's put up or shut up time.
Prove the following claims you have made or recant them and dedicate yourself to better research, less revisionism and recovering from fluff:

1) That "Celtic Traditions" = Druids.

2) That these Druids have survived in "a small fairly inaccessable [sic] part in southern Ireland, near the coast. "

3) That the Gael do not count "with their varying beliefs [as] a society."

4) That "the inclusion of some of the Celtic pantheon [within Christendom] is a way in which the old tradition survives today"

5) That plainly phrased, there are members of the gods of the Gael that have been appropriated as Saints.

6) That such an action would even imply that "isn't it in all likelihood that druidism" exists today.

7) Archeological Evidence proving each tribe has it's differences suddenly means that the Gael aren't a society.

8 ) That being a Druid "was a lifestyle and a title".

9) That "[T]he Tain,... shows splits in the society: warriors and druids".

10) That Roman documentation is anything more than propaganda of the age.


I'll wait for these ten proofs, and I'll shoot a line to Cu.  

[TeaDidikai]

Namikikyo

No, I have not. Other then the experiances of working with myself, then working with a deity. There just seems to be a difference, But that's only from personal experiance. .__."

Personal experience is a good start, but it needs to be evaluated critically, or you could well end up lying to yourself.

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I think it would be a positive effect, And will give me the closure to leave Witchcraft and go into Hellenic Mystism.

Fair enough. Not saying this is the case, but it looks like you have a lot of investigation to do.

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Maybe it's time to reevaluate the goal.

That and a few other things.

Best of luck with that.

Gho the Girl

Does anybody have an opinion on Goetia?

This is a rather vague question Sweets.

My opinion about the Infernal Keys usually rests on a number of terms found in Jewish mysticism that take hours to explain and perhaps lifetimes to understand.

Basically, most of the critters aren't the kind of infernals that are completely unreasonable. That said, most of them will eat your face if you ********.

This kind of magic and the beings it leads one to have contact with takes a very specific kind of person to work it.  

[TeaDidikai]

Nattfodd

Gho the Girl

Does anybody have an opinion on Goetia?

It's wonderful. Depends on which publishing you get, though. They're all very good... though I should say, the Goetia isn't for everyone.

Hogwash. I'm sorry Sweets, but Crowley couldn't draw a goetic spirit to save his life. If we are talking overall quality, why shouldn't we include illustrations?  

[Nattfodd]

TeaDidikai

Nattfodd

Gho the Girl

Does anybody have an opinion on Goetia?

It's wonderful. Depends on which publishing you get, though. They're all very good... though I should say, the Goetia isn't for everyone.

Hogwash. I'm sorry Sweets, but Crowley couldn't draw a goetic spirit to save his life. If we are talking overall quality, why shouldn't we include illustrations?

To be fair, I never thought Crowley was much of an artist in any regard, unless he was drawing something that you could use a protractor or compass for.

There are other publishings though, with better illustrations, if I recall correctly. And not all are by Crowley in the Mathers/Crowley edition either, if I recall. (I no longer own the Goetia, when I split with my ex-girlfriend, that became her book... crying )

I don't really regard the Goetia as all that dangerous, either, more like accelerated natural selection. Most kids find it doesn't work for them (usually because they have no clue about context or systems to work with it in,) and advanced practitioners usually know well the dangers possible in messing around with Goetic workings.  

[Namikikyo]

Guardian Tenshi Yami

Namikikyo

Guardian Tenshi Yami

Ok.. Ignoring the flamers... I'm a priest of Kemeticism. (Orthodox, not the reconstruction) I've got some experience with this, being fairly more sensitive to things like that. Here's what is customarily done to cleanse and put to rest a troubled spirit/remnant.

What you'll need
1 bottle of rose water (Easily bought at any grocery store)
dried rose petals
a metal dish that has wide brim, must be able to withstand heat.
3 types of incense (Like Nag Champa, Patchouli, and Sandalwood)
Matches
a bundle of Sage
Crystal Pendulum

Take the rose water, rub the dish down with it and then place the rose petals in the dish. Set them alight and in a semi circle around the dish, light the individual types at the three points of the circle (Median, Top, Median). Take the pendulum, dip it in the remaining rose water, hang it above the dish, light the sage bundle and hold it, chant the afflicted one's name (First is fine) 13 times, extinguish the flame in the dish with more rose water and then, with the lit sage bundle, trace the doorways.

What if she doesn't have all the tools? Last time I checked, most people don't keep a crystal pendulum in their back pockets.


And how are we supposed to know you're a Priest?

They're fairly inexpensive. That's a bloody shopping list, hon.
As for confirming my being a Priest, I can only say this. The Ancient Rites, being written in Demotic (the written language of early Egyptians) required three days of fasting, twelve blood offerings to various deities of various sects. In addition to the chantings in the spoken Dialect of Demotic, I'd say I have a good grasp as a priest. Modern Theology has eliminated the paperworks associated with being a priest of an almost dead religion

Is this true? All someone has to do is this to become a priest in this religion?

Something just seems fishy about this. Then again, I'm not well versed in Kemetic paganism.