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 Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:52 am
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Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:41 am
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TeaDidikai TatteredAngel *giggle* Yes. That is just it. I've found that little hole in my being. It's that in my past life, I was a stillborn dingo. It so affected me that my soul still screams Stillborn Dingo. A far cry from my other incarnation as Nefertiti. Now- does that mean that you have to play with toys that have already been chewed to death? |
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Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:05 am
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TeaDidikai Triste-chan TeaDidikai Triste-chan Being in a round hole does not make one a round peg. The idea with otherkin is that the soul doesn't change form just because the body does. In which case- take into account the short lifespan of animals in the wild. When they reincarnate as said animal after they were eaten by their mother for being the runt of the litter- to they reincarnate as a dead live baby animal? ... A dead live baby animal? Dead live? What? If you assume your past incarnation is more valid than your present, and your past incarnation was as a still born puppy dog- does that mean you are by your soul's nature a Stillborn Puppy Dog? NecroKin! twisted
uaaaaagh puppyfetuskin!!!
Anyway. Once again, I think you're kind of misinterpreting here. Your past incarnation (incarnation being the physical manifestation of your soul) was the hole. Not the peg.
Assuming that your soul correctly fit into the stillborn puppy dog, then you would have a dog's soul. The stillborn puppy part is part of the hole, for otherkin.
Also, I've been resisting for a long time, but now I really have to say this - HAHAHAHA PEG HAHAHA HOLE. Sorry.
Quote: Quote: Unless your species really is an unchangable part of your soul, and I don't see how you can prove otherwise, really. I mean, I think the idea of otherkin belief is that all that other stuff, like what religion and culture you belong to, is all part of the hole. Species, however, is part of the peg. And how do you draw the nature of the culture out of the nature of the species? ~snickers~ I love the Lone Wolf mythology- so glamerous, so posh... so ignorant of what a pack animal needs to survive.
*shrugs* If you're asking for specifics, you're talking to the wrong person. I would say that there are certain parts of social structures that are kind of unchangable - in a wolf pack, there's always going to be an alpha and an omega, and for humans, there's always going to be one person/group of people in power and one person/group of people used as a scapegoat or whipping boy. For wolves, the society is always going to be based off who's bigger and stronger and a better hunter, and in human society, it's always going to be based off who's best at playing the weird-a** social game we have going, which can be based on anything from intellegence to looks to how hard you can hit a ball with a stick.
And yes, the Lone Wolf mythology is utterly absurd. |
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Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:40 am
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Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:10 pm
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TeaDidikai And what I am pointing out is that no matter how poorly you feel you fit in, no matter what you think you might be better at- you are Here, NOW. Thus, you are human. The other alternitive I have seen that makes far more sense than "OMG! I am a stillborn dingo pup!" is the concept of Spiritual Fostering. Further- when you come across creatures that are by their nature non-corporeal, how does one justify that their existance as a non-corporeal being caused them to become corporeal. That's a real kicker there.
So, when I was an LDS kid and didn't like it, it shouldn't have mattered, right? 'Cause that's what I was, that's where I was, how I'd been [almost] since birth. Your argument can be interpreted this way, it's very broad. If religion isn't a good enough analogy, how about sex and gender? I'm female, but I'm an androgynous one. At work, I get customers calling me over like this, "Excuse me, young man." I don't care much for either gender definition, because I recognize how weak they are compared to the reality of life. But, I'm female. Am I therefore bound to being feminine? Why should I be? Birth doesn't bind us to anything but to live, regardless of how we're born. Barring stillbirth, of course. |
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Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:28 pm
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Aesi So, when I was an LDS kid and didn't like it, it shouldn't have mattered, right? 'Cause that's what I was, that's where I was, how I'd been [almost] since birth. Your argument can be interpreted this way, it's very broad.
Further- will this affect another incarnation should you be placed in a different situation? Of course not.
Quote: If religion isn't a good enough analogy, how about sex and gender? I'm female, but I'm an androgynous one. At work, I get customers calling me over like this, "Excuse me, young man." I don't care much for either gender definition, because I recognize how weak they are compared to the reality of life. But, I'm female. Am I therefore bound to being feminine? Why should I be?
Quote: Birth doesn't bind us to anything but to live, regardless of how we're born. Barring stillbirth, of course. |
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Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:11 pm
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TeaDidikai Aesi So, when I was an LDS kid and didn't like it, it shouldn't have mattered, right? 'Cause that's what I was, that's where I was, how I'd been [almost] since birth. Your argument can be interpreted this way, it's very broad. Not really- because we are addressing the situation you are in at any given moment. Should the fact that you were an LDS kid affect you beyond how it manifests in your current situation? No. Further- will this affect another incarnation should you be placed in a different situation? Of course not.
You ever tried convincing a Mormon of this? If you ever get the chance, good freakin' luck. And yes, I do believe that my past influences me, now. Life is lived to learn. Then why in hell would we live more than once if nothing from one life ever influences what comes after?
Quote: Quote: If religion isn't a good enough analogy, how about sex and gender? I'm female, but I'm an androgynous one. At work, I get customers calling me over like this, "Excuse me, young man." I don't care much for either gender definition, because I recognize how weak they are compared to the reality of life. But, I'm female. Am I therefore bound to being feminine? Why should I be? Because being female puts certain things into your life that being male doesn't (and visa versa) For example- Reagun and Fiddler are not likely to come down with a nasty case of cervical cancer any time soon.
Quote: Birth doesn't bind us to anything but to live, regardless of how we're born. Barring stillbirth, of course.
I'm human, but am I the same kind of human as, say, an Ainu? Not even close. I've evolved along a very different chain than they have. So what is the all-encompassing human culture, eh? What humans say, what we do, what we think, how we behave? If that's the case, then the guy who's thinking those sheep are starting to look real sexy is part of human culture. If it's so cutoff from animals' culture, then why would it ever enter his brain to have sex with with a sheep? A sheep! All humanity has evolved along very different chains from the sheep. An American can go live with a foreign tribe for a year and decide they are better off with the natives. You said it. We opt. We humans can adopt a culture different from the one we were born to. This is purely a psychological attachment. So, why are we incapable of finding ourselves attached to animal cultures? Why do you think it is so damned different? |
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Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:48 pm
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Aesi You ever tried convincing a Mormon of this? If you ever get the chance, good freakin' luck. And yes, I do believe that my past influences me, now. Life is lived to learn. Then why in hell would we live more than once if nothing from one life ever influences what comes after?
Your past only influences your current situation as much as you allow it to.
As to "why in hell would we live more than once if nothing from one life ever influences what comes after?"- there are a number of answers in a number of different theologies.
One of my personal favorites is that the universe is so vast we opt to experience DIFFERENT things.
Another is that karma in and of itself creates attachment. That lifetime does not make for the dharma of this lifetime. Karma still needs to be nulled- no matter what dharma you hold at present or in the future.
If we are going for rebirth rather than reincarnation- this becomes even clearer.
Then there are those who incarnate for shits and giggles.
But prey- tell, what is learned by an infant that lives for three days as a braindead veggie.
Quote: Cervical cancer is a physical problem. Sex is physical. Gender is not.
As much as I enjoy pop-psychology and gender issues- it's still a soft field that has clearly established that neither biology nor psychology alone create identity.
Quote: Though gender does have some biological influence, it is primarily psychological. In some people, it is easily altered. In others, it is resilient and stands up to other people's efforts to change it. There are psychology clinics that claim to "cure" homosexuality. Occasionally, they actually have success in changing gender and sexual preference.
Quote: We are not restricted to one gender per sex or one gender for our entire lives.
Quote: My culture does not define me. My character joins many others to define my culture.
Quote: And when did I opt to be American?
Quote: It had to be before I was born, because I damned sure didn't decide it while I was crying in my crib.
Have a cookie.
Quote: I'm human, but am I the same kind of human as, say, an Ainu? Not even close.
Quote: I've evolved along a very different chain than they have.
Such silly little things as phonics and being bipedal- oh, and clothing.
Quote: So what is the all-encompassing human culture, eh? What humans say, what we do, what we think, how we behave? If that's the case, then the guy who's thinking those sheep are starting to look real sexy is part of human culture.
Quote: If it's so cutoff from animals' culture, then why would it ever enter his brain to have sex with with a sheep? A sheep!
Quote: An American can go live with a foreign tribe for a year and decide they are better off with the natives. You said it. We opt. We humans can adopt a culture different from the one we were born to.
But it is a beautiful straw man none the less. Good try. A+ for effort.
Quote: So, why are we incapable of finding ourselves attached to animal cultures? |
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Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:36 pm
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Quote: Quote: We are not restricted to one gender per sex or one gender for our entire lives. NO! YOU are not restricted. Some of us very much are. Stop projecting.
Fine. So what makes you restricted? Did your gods change your basic biology so that hormonal differences could not affect your gender? Do they alter your soul before birth so that you will never be troubled by their rules of gender? No. You are restricted by the rules you have learned from your culture. I take it that in your culture, you are bound to accept its definitions of your gender or you will be an outcast?
Quote: No- but you are right now. Congrats. You now understand the concept of passive inclusion. Have a cookie.
So, passive inclusion means I have to accept and live by the social standards of my culture verbatim? Now -that's- bullshit. I'm not a collective. I am me. -I- decide. See below.
Quote: Quote: My culture does not define me. My character joins many others to define my culture. I call bullshit. Proof that you are devoid of cultural influence please.
Fair enough. More accurately, I choose how my culture affects me because I am not defined by it. That is, my culture is not everything that I am. If it were, I wouldn't be a fur or bisexual, because my culture degrades such people. If some pressure or problem exists in my culture, I decide my opinion on it.
Quote: Quote: And when did I opt to be American? The moment you stayed instead of left.
stare That's damned hard to do when you have not one spare penny. Passports and transportation are costly, you know?
Quote: Quote: So, why are we incapable of finding ourselves attached to animal cultures? Well, let's look at what creates a culture. Identity, Language, Expression-...
See below.
Quote: Quote: I've evolved along a very different chain than they have. And yet- you have so much in common. Such silly little things as phonics and being bipedal- oh, and clothing.
Many animals are bipedal, too. Apes and birds come to mind. Clothing was originally a means to protect the furless human from environmental and atmospheric conditions. Only after we began settling into communities did clothing began to take on the moral purpose of modesty, as we began to protect ourselves inside crude buildings. And animals have decipherable language. We have identified thousands of sounds for some species like cats and dolphins. Even dinosaurs were able to communicate complex information required for problem solving, another form of intelligence we humans often like to use as an example of how different we are from animals. Same with the use of tools, but there are spiders who weave traps for their prey and apes who use sticks to dig holes in termite mounds and fish the insects out of their nests.
Quote: Quote: So what is the all-encompassing human culture, eh? What humans say, what we do, what we think, how we behave? If that's the case, then the guy who's thinking those sheep are starting to look real sexy is part of human culture. Yeah- actually, he is part of human culture. Interesting isn't it?
You just reiterated my point. He's an example that human culture has few limitations. Any regional culture itself is enormous. And the variety of them is impressive. Together, they represent a vast human culture that is beyond definition. |
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Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:20 pm
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Aesi Fine. So what makes you restricted? Did your gods change your basic biology so that hormonal differences could not affect your gender? Do they alter your soul before birth so that you will never be troubled by their rules of gender? No. You are restricted by the rules you have learned from your culture. I take it that in your culture, you are bound to accept its definitions of your gender or you will be an outcast?
My gods made me female. Period. Had they made me something else, we would be having a different conversation.
Quote: So, passive inclusion means I have to accept and live by the social standards of my culture verbatim? Now -that's- bullshit. I'm not a collective. I am me. -I- decide. See below.
Quote: Fair enough. More accurately, I choose how my culture affects me because I am not defined by it. That is, my culture is not everything that I am. If it were, I wouldn't be a fur or bisexual, because my culture degrades such people.
Quote: stare That's damned hard to do when you have not one spare penny. Passports and transportation are costly, you know?
If you are too lazy to either save up money for a passport and ticket, or to get a good pair of shoes and start walking to the nearest boarder- it's your decision.
Quote: Many animals are bipedal, too. Apes and birds come to mind.
Quote: Clothing was originally a means to protect the furless human from environmental and atmospheric conditions.
Quote: And animals have decipherable language. We have identified thousands of sounds for some species like cats and dolphins. Even dinosaurs were able to communicate complex information required for problem solving, another form of intelligence we humans often like to use as an example of how different we are from animals.
Quote: Same with the use of tools, but there are spiders who weave traps for their prey and apes who use sticks to dig holes in termite mounds and fish the insects out of their nests.
Quote: Together, they represent a vast human culture that is beyond definition.
Guess what? All the delusions of the world that you have the soul of an animal and the grand mythos you attach to it doesn't change the fact that you are living as part of the Human Culture- and not the animal of your choice. |
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Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 2:38 pm
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TeaDidikai Good gods child. Do you project your gender issues onto deities now? My gods made me female. Period. Had they made me something else, we would be having a different conversation.
Maybe I do. Because they decide what bodies we get, ne? Your gods made your -body- female. And apparently made your soul female, as well. Mine did not.
Quote: Quote: So, passive inclusion means I have to accept and live by the social standards of my culture verbatim? Now -that's- bullshit. I'm not a collective. I am me. -I- decide. See below. As you are defined by overarching cultures and the subcultures you belong to- pretty much. That's the joy of a social structure that goes from broad to narrow with it's definitions.
If that's how it is, then no individual exists or has ever existed. No one has ever bucked the trend because they automatically were the trend. And niche interests don't exist because there has never been a counter-cultural trend to create them. If everyone were defined by their culture, everyone would follow their cultural standard, always.
Quote: Quote: stare That's damned hard to do when you have not one spare penny. Passports and transportation are costly, you know? b***h b***h b***h, moan moan moan. Want to leave? Leave. Simple as that. If you are too lazy to either save up money for a passport and ticket, or to get a good pair of shoes and start walking to the nearest boarder- it's your decision.
Excuse me? Lazy? Every day of my life is spent pursuing a goal that will take me elsewhere. Money, damnit. And it's ******** hard to earn. I haven't even been able to set aside my taxes. It was either that or have food. How privileged you must be if you've never had to work hard just to live. It's not bitching. It's how life really is. Hard work.
Quote: Quote: Many animals are bipedal, too. Apes and birds come to mind. Oh! Look! Thumbs!
Opposable thumbs aren't unique to humans. Opossums, chimpanzees, and monkeys have them. Thumbs down.
Quote: Quote: Clothing was originally a means to protect the furless human from environmental and atmospheric conditions. And yet- there is Fashion, which is so much more.
Fashion = mating plumage. From the moment we started making clothes to protect ourselves, we started embellishing them to display wealth, cultural status, and virility. Every mating animal on earth uses its colors, scent, voice, or dexterity to attract a mate. Fashion is the product of this instinct in humans.
Quote: Quote: And animals have decipherable language. We have identified thousands of sounds for some species like cats and dolphins. Even dinosaurs were able to communicate complex information required for problem solving, another form of intelligence we humans often like to use as an example of how different we are from animals. None of which takes into account the nature of language in such things as dialects and slang.
Actually, animals do have dialects. Observe two domestic cats from different households for a while. The same vocalizations and body language can have different meanings. My cat purrs when she wants attention, but her mother purred when she was playing.
I'll give you slang, though. Not being able to decode an entire animals' language, I have no way of knowing.
Quote: Quote: Same with the use of tools, but there are spiders who weave traps for their prey and apes who use sticks to dig holes in termite mounds and fish the insects out of their nests. And yet- humans (that silly little culture you belong to) made computers (that silly little thing you are using in tandem with language and slang to communicate with me... a human).
rolleyes It is nothing but a more advanced tool. I think computers are a miracle of human potential, but it really only shows that our problem-solving and tool-making skills have progressed much faster than an ape's. It is not evident that any other animal, with sufficient time to evolve, would not produce computers as well. |
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Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 2:57 pm
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Aesi Maybe I do. Because they decide what bodies we get, ne? Your gods made your -body- female. And apparently made your soul female, as well. Mine did not.
My soul is none of my gods concern. As I pointed out my biology may or may not be.
And I would love for you to prove that your gods made your soul anything, and that they did indeed make your soul something shaped other than human shaped rather than you constructing a delusion due to you needing to be such a unique little snowflake and thus relying on a grand personal mythos to make yourself different.
Quote: If that's how it is, then no individual exists or has ever existed. No one has ever bucked the trend because they automatically were the trend. And niche interests don't exist because there has never been a counter-cultural trend to create them.
Quote: If everyone were defined by their culture, everyone would follow their cultural standard, always.
This is my favorite line for people with delusions designed to make them "special". "You're unique- just like everyone else."
Cute huh?
Quote: Excuse me? Lazy? Every day of my life is spent pursuing a goal that will take me elsewhere. Money, damnit. And it's ******** hard to earn.
No? Guess what that makes you? Complacent. You don’t want it bad enough so you don’t work hard enough.
Quote: I haven't even been able to set aside my taxes. It was either that or have food. How privileged you must be if you've never had to work hard just to live. It's not bitching. It's how life really is. Hard work.
By and by- I have been homeless. I have lived in tent cities and I did so because I had no intention of being where I was when I decided to leave.
That is to say- my desire to be elsewhere was greater than my desire to have those lovely HUMAN creature comforts that you seem so attached to.
It is ******** bitching. Don't want to live in the states- sell whatever you are using to communicate with me now, sell everything you own but a change of clothes, some good shoes, a sleeping bag and a back pack and leave.
But you won't. Because as much as you are "not human" you don't know what it is to live as an animal.
Quote: Opposable thumbs aren't unique to humans. Opossums, chimpanzees, and monkeys have them. Thumbs down.
Quote: Fashion = mating plumage.
Care to try again?
Quote: Actually, animals do have dialects. Observe two domestic cats from different households for a while. The same vocalizations and body language can have different meanings. My cat purrs when she wants attention, but her mother purred when she was playing.
Purs are an expression of intense emotion, which can include pleasure, fear, hunger and a number of other things.
Also note that such is not a dialect.
Quote: rolleyes It is nothing but a more advanced tool. I think computers are a miracle of human potential, but it really only shows that our problem-solving and tool-making skills have progressed much faster than an ape's. It is not evident that any other animal, with sufficient time to evolve, would not produce computers as well.
And are you implying that other animals have not had sufficient time to evolve?
OMG!@1111 Humenz r teh Oldest an!malz!!!!!1 |
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Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 3:54 pm
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Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:54 pm
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