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 Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 1:58 am
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:29 am
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iolitefire Lol, very true. Some deities are short tempered like that. But in the Morrigan's case, I view her to be more level headed.
Quote: Also, consider this: A compassionate deity would attempt to aid people even if he/she was being disrespected.
Not so with posers.
You keep applying your morality and emotions to deities. It's not a good idea in many cases.
Quote: Besides, is everyone who goofs up going to smited? Do they really deserve that much attention from a god to be smited? I suppose some Western deities might be smite-happy but then again, those in the Greek pantheon tend to be a tad reckless.
For them to give a damn, they would need to be aware of it.
For that to happen, they would have to be doing something that would grab their attention.
Hence one of the major reasons a lot of deities that should scare the s**t out of someone turn out to be all love and sparkles. It isn't the actual deity.
Quote: I consider the Morrigan to be one of the least understood deities thats worshipped in Neopaganism. I mean, seriously. I once saw someone who said that they worship the Morrgan because they liked crows. If the Morrigan is going to take the time and effort to smite every single person who disrespected her, then a big chunk of Neopagans would be smited.
Quote: In the end, it depends on the god and how they are being disrespected. Most offenders can be simply ignored and avoided at the end of the day. If there is a serious offense, like a true follower being killed or something like that, that would be a call for some smiting. I think.
Again. Applying your concept of merit to deities is slightly flawed.
Case in point- Bibi. It most certainly does not take the death of a Rroma to earn her wrath.
Quote: As for thoughtforms, I've honestly heard of them before but under a different name. Normally they act like dopplegangers, look a likes but without true substance. When you worship deities who are big on action such as combat, it's obvious that a thoughtform doesn't have the potency as a god.
Thoughtforms or constructs can be designed (aware or otherwise) in any shape that pleases the creator.
Further- just because they aren't deities, doesn't mean they don't have substance.
Further- I would like proof that someone who is ignorant of said deities (we'll cite The Morrigan as examples) would be able to tell the difference between The Morrigan and a Thoughtform designed to act how the individual says The Morrigan should be.
Quote: If the thoughtform does have the ability to grant power and strength unto others and can be recognized by other deities or spirits as a real deal, is it still a thoughtform?
Further- it isn't the thoughtform granting the power. It often becomes the "unaware" permission for the Will to do what it needs.
Quote: And if it is, couldn't it be possible that a being with that much power can be considered a god onto its self?
Quote: If a thoughtform can have as much power as the god it's mimicking, then how do we know its still a thoughtform? |
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:23 pm
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:40 pm
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Quote: yeah. Your View < Objective Reality.
My view = my worldview. I'm not objective. No one is. In reality, do we know everything about everything? No. That's my opinion. you may not like it, but then again in the end I don't agree with your opinions either.
Quote: Not always. Case in point- Alako is very compassionate to his people. Not so with posers. You keep applying your morality and emotions to deities. It's not a good idea in many cases.
My point was that a nicer deity wouldn't smite someone for something like ignorance. Kuroiban made the assumption that if a deity doesn't smite people then it is a compassionate, thoughtful deity. I was contesting that statement on the grounds that some deities aren't as reckless as others.
Quote: For them to give a damn, they would need to be aware of it. For that to happen, they would have to be doing something that would grab their attention. Hence one of the major reasons a lot of deities that should scare the s**t out of someone turn out to be all love and sparkles. It isn't the actual deity.
But I have one question, while spirits and even other deities could easily parade around as somone else, how do you know its a thoughtform? Can you tell me 100%? Even if you could, someone can simply say that your being subjective. Religion and spirituality is not objective. We're assulted by people's interpretations all the time.
One's faith is personal and what may work for you may not work for others. If you feel that those who don't share your views are fluffy bunnies, then in your mind you must be the only "true" pagan or whatever you call yourself.
Quote: You also tend to assume that deities are 100% aware of when they are being disrespected. A vast number of pagan gods are not omni-X.
True, I do assume. Why? Because in my view, if you claim allegiance to a deity then that deity has power over you. So if you say you worship a deity and do something dumb, the deity will probably know about it in some way.
Quote: Again. Applying your concept of merit to deities is slightly flawed. Case in point- Bibi. It most certainly does not take the death of a Rroma to earn her wrath.
Hence why I said it depends on the deity and how they are being disrespected.
Quote: You're now applying a misunderstanding to thoughtforms. Thoughtforms or constructs can be designed (aware or otherwise) in any shape that pleases the creator. Further- just because they aren't deities, doesn't mean they don't have substance. Further- I would like proof that someone who is ignorant of said deities (we'll cite The Morrigan as examples) would be able to tell the difference between The Morrigan and a Thoughtform designed to act how the individual says The Morrigan should be.
Sorry, I never was into Crowley which is where the idea came from as I've been told. From what I've read, thoughtforms have to be created and designed. I don't think this can be done unconciously as it would require a lot of skill involving more advanced magic use.
Are thoughtforms that easy to make that all you must do is think of qualities and aspects you want? And that they also have substance? If
so, then I should go "thoughtform" myself a dream man. He'll be attractive, caring, rich and he'll cook. But why stop there? I'll go "thoughtform" my dream house to complete with "thoughtformed" furniture and jacuzzi.
If simply making an opinion about something creates a thoughtform, then why aren't there more around? Further, how can we distinguish whether all magic is legit or simply one giant thoughtform?
Quote: Yes. For one, the deities themselves will be aware of it's construction.
So in your view, a deity may not know its being disrespected but it will automatically know if there is a thoughtform of it?
Quote: Further it would be one of those uneasy experiences for a Thoughtform to meet with the Deity that it mimics.
But how do knew that "the Deity that it mimics" is really a deity? It could just be a super-thoughtform.
Quote: Further- it isn't the thoughtform granting the power. It often becomes the "unaware" permission for the Will to do what it needs.
Holy Crap! So when I pray for strength and get it, then its really me thats providing the strength? Sweet! Who needs gods when I have all this power myself? Since the Will is so powerful, I can just use that!
This is great! No need to worship the gods, no bothering with rituals or moral codes! All I have to do is use my will...no, my Will (got to capitalize it since its so hardcore) to get what I want!
Quote: Power does not denote godhood.
Lol, indeed. Especially now that I all need to do is "thoughtform" a batch of it!
Quote: If a thoughtform can have as much power as the god it's mimicking, then how do we know its still a thoughtform?
Of course you excel in both categories, Tea. You are a Didikai after all. Since you are so enlightened and experienced, you should write some books! I can see it now Babi's Doppleganger: Introduction to Thoughtforms by Tea.
All you'd have to do is "thoughtform" some publishers! But since the Will is so powerful that'd be a cinch for you!
All right, this is my 'Adios' post (Oh no! I said adios! I must be cultural raping the Spanish language!) Nuri, you seem like a really nice person and I just wanted to tell you that I appreciate you coming in here and adding your input. You were willing to listen to both sides and I appreciate that.
The majority of you guys seem ok too. You asked questions and listened and answered my questions too.
I just didn't sign up to have my views insulted because someone felt that she was the Wise One or something. If I wanted someone to critize my beliefs and force theirs on to me then I would have gone back to Christianity.
So, toodles. Oh, and Tea, keep thoughtforming your dreams! I'm sure someday you'll be a nice person, toots! |
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:54 pm
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Wow, that was amazingly childish, but I did want to cover something I noticed while reading through this thread.
iolitefire I don't believe all war goddesses or love goddesses are the same by any means. They may preside over similar fields but their behavior, mannerisms, and mythologies might be incredibly different. Look at Aphrodite and Bast. Both are considered to have some power over the powers of love and lust but they were different in many ways. Bast is more than that of course, and should be treated differently than other 'love goddesses'.
Bast is not a "love goddess." She is one of several goddess known as an Eye of Ra. She is vengeful, protective, and rather nasty at times. It was only through her association with Het-Hert, Mut, and Aset that she was softened, but only then to a love of the arts and music, really.
The closest you can get to her being a "love goddess" is that she was at times considered a protector of children and pregnant women.
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:22 pm
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:45 pm
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iolitefire Of course you excel in both categories, Tea. You are a Didikai after all. Since you are so enlightened and experienced, you should write some books! I can see it now Babi's Doppleganger: Introduction to Thoughtforms by Tea. All you'd have to do is "thoughtform" some publishers! But since the Will is so powerful that'd be a cinch for you! All right, this is my 'Adios' post (Oh no! I said adios! I must be cultural raping the Spanish language!) Nuri, you seem like a really nice person and I just wanted to tell you that I appreciate you coming in here and adding your input. You were willing to listen to both sides and I appreciate that. The majority of you guys seem ok too. You asked questions and listened and answered my questions too. I just didn't sign up to have my views insulted because someone felt that she was the Wise One or something. If I wanted someone to critize my beliefs and force theirs on to me then I would have gone back to Christianity. So, toodles. Oh, and Tea, keep thoughtforming your dreams! I'm sure someday you'll be a nice person, toots!
You know, I had a really nice long speach prepared, to explain in an elongated form, why I thought you were off you bloody rocker.
Then I realized that you, your condescension, lack of ettiqutte, and self-masterbratory variation of theology don't deserve the time of day. The only person who has truely been disrespectful and insulting is you. |
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Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:26 am
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Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:09 am
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Kuroiban I HAVE LOTS OF GOLD COINS!
Anyway! How about that--talk of Satanism. Nothing draws in the Pirate more effectively than that. >.> And perhaps a PM or two alerting her of Satanism-related discussions. That works too.
TeaDidikai Aesi Yes, and I was talking about the Satanists I've known, wasn't I? And yet you are ignorant in the ways of many other kinds of Satanists (who are very moral people indeed), and you (say it with me folks!) Commit a Hasty Generalization based upon a Biased Sample.
*And you are ignorant in the ways of a vast majority of other kinds of Satanists.
Forgive me if I am wrong, but from reading your descriptions, Aesi, on the Satanists that you do know, it sounds to me they are what most of the serious Satanic community has labeled "pseudo-Satanism." Typically adolescents and teenagers are indeed pseudo-Satanists, though there are plenty of adults who are as well. They are, as Tea earlier described, the type who claim to be Satanist to piss off mommy and daddy. They're typically the same kinds you would find running around etching anarchy symbols into classroom desks without even really understanding what anarchy is, just because it looks cool and rebellious. Satanism also happens to look cool and rebellious.
Aesi It's when people dismiss both gods and values together that disturbs me, which is why I put all these descriptions in the same sentence. My summary of the whole description of Satanism given to me. The whole is what I object, not the parts. (Not most of them, anyway.)
If I had simply taken the word of a few self-proclaimed Wiccans I know as to what Wicca is, I would never understand it. I did not agree with what I initially thought Wicca was. Then, I did some real research about it, and found that I still didn't agree with it. Nonetheless, I learned about it--and I learned that it was vastly different than my perceptions of Wicca really were. Whether you agree with Satanism as you know it or not, I implore you to look into it, seriously, then decide whether you agree or disagree with it. I can recommend a few sites, and a few books that are stellar learning tools in regards to atheistic Satanism.
TeaDidikai Aesi Okay, so Anton's Satanism was moralistic. What were those morals, then? Ping. Question for Pirate. There are as far as I recall, prohibitions against hurting others who do not harm you first, prohibitions against being dishonest, against theft, against being an idiot, against giving unwarrented advice, and a host of other things that involve proper conduct with those in the society and in dealing with those who violate hospitality.
Aesi My experience is mine. I can choose whether or not to further it. I weigh my experience, my knowledge from other sources, and my beliefs to come up with my judgment. So far, my judgment is that Satanism is not something I want involvement with.
This style of argument you are using is not one I am unfamiliar with. I hear it often in ED as well, usually from those I would refer to this particular guild for de-fluffinization. You have made it known that your only sources on Satanism have been a few people that you know who claim the title. You then proceed to tell someone who has actually studied Satanism that she is wrong because your buddies say so. You then reject anything she has to teach you on the matter. It is like you are going out of your way not to learn.
And I do understand that it can be embarrassing when you are proven wrong about something. Believe me, Tea's done it to me plenty of times as well. From there, however, I would take what I have been told, and see if I can verify it, using different sources. 'cause knowledge is power! *Pose!*
Anyway, this guild, ED, and M&R, are not places that most will be satisfied with a:
My understanding of ______ is _______ and no one can tell me any different, because this is my opinion, and my opinion is fact.
Aesi At this moment, if I met a Satanist who was a moral person, I'd respect the person but worry about that particular choice.
Aesi I'd also jump them with questions, not for justification of their choice but for verification or dismissal of the thoughts I have on it thus far and for satisfaction of curiosity.
Aesi LaVey, well, I can't claim personal experience with the guy. He may have had a good heart, he may not have. From what I have been told by those who did meet him, and from the poor character of those I've known who admire him, I tend to be suspicious of him.
Aesi TeaDidikai Aesi If everything is equal in value, then nothing is valuable. I am inclined to agree. As are Satanists. If I meet a moral Satanist, it'll be one of the first questions I ask them.
I am very inclined to agree. Are you sure the Satanists you've know were Satanists?
Aesi Because the Satanists I've known have believed that all things are of equal value, this is one of the major reasons why I questioned their beliefs.
Kudos if you can find it. Hint: Look for the words "better" or "worse."
I'm on it!
Is there a Tea signal? |
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Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:24 am
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Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:28 am
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Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:30 am
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TeaDidikai PirateEire I'm on it! Is there a Tea signal? Not yet. Although- most people don't need a Tea Signal because I keep the important infodumps in my journal and people can just C&P from there.
You dont have mine sad
*Though it does need a little re-work on it. One day I may get bored enough to redo it. |
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Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:32 am
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deadmanjake TeaDidikai PirateEire I'm on it! Is there a Tea signal? Not yet. Although- most people don't need a Tea Signal because I keep the important infodumps in my journal and people can just C&P from there. You dont have mine sad *Though it does need a little re-work on it. One day I may get bored enough to redo it.
If you want me to rewrite it, I will. |
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Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:40 am
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TeaDidikai deadmanjake TeaDidikai PirateEire I'm on it! Is there a Tea signal? Not yet. Although- most people don't need a Tea Signal because I keep the important infodumps in my journal and people can just C&P from there. You dont have mine sad *Though it does need a little re-work on it. One day I may get bored enough to redo it. Yours has inaccurate infromation. If you want me to rewrite it, I will.
Other than the age, what is innaccurate? I want something that is truly good. |
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