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 Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:28 am
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Lethkhar Everlasting Chaos And here's a good counter-argument to your whole 'if you use DoW you don't know how to play your own army' thing. The main point behind them is to give your army access to units that balance out their weaknesses. A while back I played against a Khorne Chaos player. It was a 1k pt game, and I had gone with a shooty army. The guy had hired a Cannon. Khorne with artillary. Fortunately I had some Pistoliers sitting around and quickly dismantled the thing, but if I didn't he could have become a major problem. Exactly my point. Chaos shouldn't be using cannons. It's just wrong. Unless it's a hellcannon, it doesn't make sense. What DoW is going to want to affiliate themselves with people who would just as soon kill one of their own as one of the enemy? I mean, demons at least can't take DoW's...But since when do the High Elves or Dwarves hire goblins to fight in their ranks? Giving Wood Elves a bunch of swordsmen goes against the spirit of the army. Give them a bunch of tough, hold-their-own warriors that fight in ranks, and you no longer have Wood Elves. You have a disgrace to the race. If you can't deal with what your army offers, without hiring odd mercaneries that realistically would never affiliate themselves with you, then you can't deal with you army. Every army has its weakness, let's keep it that way. If you use Dogs of War with your Empire army, you can't technically say that you play Empire, because you play a motley of randomly assorted races with some Empire. Phew, ramble...
Umm... Actualy Elves CAN'T hire Goblins. In the same way Goblins can't hire Dwarves. They DO keep this realistic by keeping an racial feelings when choosing who can and cannot hire a DoW unit. Just like how the Brets believe strongly in chivalry, and as such can't hire ANY DoW.
As for the Chaos Cannon, they're called Chaos Dwarves. They have plenty of Cannons that I'm sure they'd LOVE to rent out to the followers of Chaos. Besides, there's always a reason why a race would work with someone they hate. Look at the Vampire Counts. The Empire is constantly fighting them. But the two of them worked together during the Storm of Chaos because Archaon was going to destroy ALL of the Empire, including the Vampire's province. |
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Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:36 am
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Everlasting Chaos Lethkhar Everlasting Chaos And here's a good counter-argument to your whole 'if you use DoW you don't know how to play your own army' thing. The main point behind them is to give your army access to units that balance out their weaknesses. A while back I played against a Khorne Chaos player. It was a 1k pt game, and I had gone with a shooty army. The guy had hired a Cannon. Khorne with artillary. Fortunately I had some Pistoliers sitting around and quickly dismantled the thing, but if I didn't he could have become a major problem. Exactly my point. Chaos shouldn't be using cannons. It's just wrong. Unless it's a hellcannon, it doesn't make sense. What DoW is going to want to affiliate themselves with people who would just as soon kill one of their own as one of the enemy? I mean, demons at least can't take DoW's...But since when do the High Elves or Dwarves hire goblins to fight in their ranks? Giving Wood Elves a bunch of swordsmen goes against the spirit of the army. Give them a bunch of tough, hold-their-own warriors that fight in ranks, and you no longer have Wood Elves. You have a disgrace to the race. If you can't deal with what your army offers, without hiring odd mercaneries that realistically would never affiliate themselves with you, then you can't deal with you army. Every army has its weakness, let's keep it that way. If you use Dogs of War with your Empire army, you can't technically say that you play Empire, because you play a motley of randomly assorted races with some Empire. Phew, ramble... Umm... Actualy Elves CAN'T hire Goblins. In the same way Goblins can't hire Dwarves. They DO keep this realistic by keeping an racial feelings when choosing who can and cannot hire a DoW unit. Just like how the Brets believe strongly in chivalry, and as such can't hire ANY DoW. As for the Chaos Cannon, they're called Chaos Dwarves. They have plenty of Cannons that I'm sure they'd LOVE to rent out to the followers of Chaos. Besides, there's always a reason why a race would work with someone they hate. Look at the Vampire Counts. The Empire is constantly fighting them. But the two of them worked together during the Storm of Chaos because Archaon was going to destroy ALL of the Empire, including the Vampire's province.
As far as I know the hellcannon can only be used in a Chaos army...
And those Chaos dwarves are from 5th edition. They were (unfortunately) put OOP. Now they're part of Chaos, with no real army of their own.
Funny thing is, you can still use the army in tournaments.
Anyways, I know they put restrictions on it, but I not enough. I mean...A giant working for the Empire? Explain that one to me. Is the Empire offering human sacrifices for the Giant to work for them? |
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Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:21 pm
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Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:17 pm
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Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:43 pm
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Lethkhar Everlasting Chaos First of all I was using Chaos Dwarves as a fluff reason to justify having a Cannon in a Chaos army. Secondly, you DO realize that Giants are easily swayed by all sorts of things, right? Much like the Ogres if you offer them food and/or shiny things they'll crush your enemies instead of you for a while. Besides, I don't think you've heard of... what was it called, Ulric's Hammer? The massive Cannon at Middenheim. What do you think mans that thing, humans? Have fun trying to get one of it's cannonballs loaded WITHOUT a Giant on your side. So they are offering human sacrifices?!? eek Those bastards....(Coming from a Chaos Player)
I think you don't quite understand what he's saying. Humans would offer Giants cattle, shinie things, and ale inexchange for fighting for them, and loading that massive cannon at Middenheim. |
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Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:45 pm
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Daemon_King Lethkhar Everlasting Chaos First of all I was using Chaos Dwarves as a fluff reason to justify having a Cannon in a Chaos army. Secondly, you DO realize that Giants are easily swayed by all sorts of things, right? Much like the Ogres if you offer them food and/or shiny things they'll crush your enemies instead of you for a while. Besides, I don't think you've heard of... what was it called, Ulric's Hammer? The massive Cannon at Middenheim. What do you think mans that thing, humans? Have fun trying to get one of it's cannonballs loaded WITHOUT a Giant on your side. So they are offering human sacrifices?!? eek Those bastards....(Coming from a Chaos Player) I think you don't quite understand what he's saying. Humans would offer Giants cattle, shinie things, and ale inexchange for fighting for them, and loading that massive cannon at Middenheim.
Still...They should at least have a rule where if the humans get too close, the giant gets hungry or something...I mean, it's not like giants have a whole lot of self-control... |
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Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:21 am
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Lethkhar Daemon_King Lethkhar Everlasting Chaos First of all I was using Chaos Dwarves as a fluff reason to justify having a Cannon in a Chaos army. Secondly, you DO realize that Giants are easily swayed by all sorts of things, right? Much like the Ogres if you offer them food and/or shiny things they'll crush your enemies instead of you for a while. Besides, I don't think you've heard of... what was it called, Ulric's Hammer? The massive Cannon at Middenheim. What do you think mans that thing, humans? Have fun trying to get one of it's cannonballs loaded WITHOUT a Giant on your side. So they are offering human sacrifices?!? eek Those bastards....(Coming from a Chaos Player) I think you don't quite understand what he's saying. Humans would offer Giants cattle, shinie things, and ale inexchange for fighting for them, and loading that massive cannon at Middenheim. Still...They should at least have a rule where if the humans get too close, the giant gets hungry or something...I mean, it's not like giants have a whole lot of self-control...
The Empire's a big place, with many, MANY cattle. A full Giant is one that will not attack humans. And if there's ever a shortage of cows they just steer the Giant into the nearest Orc/Beastman/Chaos encampment. |
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Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:14 am
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Everlasting Chaos Lethkhar Daemon_King Lethkhar Everlasting Chaos First of all I was using Chaos Dwarves as a fluff reason to justify having a Cannon in a Chaos army. Secondly, you DO realize that Giants are easily swayed by all sorts of things, right? Much like the Ogres if you offer them food and/or shiny things they'll crush your enemies instead of you for a while. Besides, I don't think you've heard of... what was it called, Ulric's Hammer? The massive Cannon at Middenheim. What do you think mans that thing, humans? Have fun trying to get one of it's cannonballs loaded WITHOUT a Giant on your side. So they are offering human sacrifices?!? eek Those bastards....(Coming from a Chaos Player) I think you don't quite understand what he's saying. Humans would offer Giants cattle, shinie things, and ale inexchange for fighting for them, and loading that massive cannon at Middenheim. Still...They should at least have a rule where if the humans get too close, the giant gets hungry or something...I mean, it's not like giants have a whole lot of self-control... The Empire's a big place, with many, MANY cattle. A full Giant is one that will not attack humans. And if there's ever a shortage of cows they just steer the Giant into the nearest Orc/Beastman/Chaos encampment.
Fine, then.
Explain goblin wolfriders. Or any sort of greenskin, for that matter. |
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Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:46 am
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Lethkhar Everlasting Chaos Lethkhar Daemon_King Lethkhar Everlasting Chaos First of all I was using Chaos Dwarves as a fluff reason to justify having a Cannon in a Chaos army. Secondly, you DO realize that Giants are easily swayed by all sorts of things, right? Much like the Ogres if you offer them food and/or shiny things they'll crush your enemies instead of you for a while. Besides, I don't think you've heard of... what was it called, Ulric's Hammer? The massive Cannon at Middenheim. What do you think mans that thing, humans? Have fun trying to get one of it's cannonballs loaded WITHOUT a Giant on your side. So they are offering human sacrifices?!? eek Those bastards....(Coming from a Chaos Player) I think you don't quite understand what he's saying. Humans would offer Giants cattle, shinie things, and ale inexchange for fighting for them, and loading that massive cannon at Middenheim. Still...They should at least have a rule where if the humans get too close, the giant gets hungry or something...I mean, it's not like giants have a whole lot of self-control... The Empire's a big place, with many, MANY cattle. A full Giant is one that will not attack humans. And if there's ever a shortage of cows they just steer the Giant into the nearest Orc/Beastman/Chaos encampment. Fine, then. Explain goblin wolfriders. Or any sort of greenskin, for that matter.
Actually they're hobgoblin wolf riders and I can't hire them. I CAN hire the Armoured Orcs though. But let's look at it this way: Where do you think those guys got their crossbows in the first place? I somehow doubt they went to the Dark Elves for them. |
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Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:58 pm
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Everlasting Chaos Lethkhar Everlasting Chaos Lethkhar Daemon_King I think you don't quite understand what he's saying. Humans would offer Giants cattle, shinie things, and ale inexchange for fighting for them, and loading that massive cannon at Middenheim. Still...They should at least have a rule where if the humans get too close, the giant gets hungry or something...I mean, it's not like giants have a whole lot of self-control... The Empire's a big place, with many, MANY cattle. A full Giant is one that will not attack humans. And if there's ever a shortage of cows they just steer the Giant into the nearest Orc/Beastman/Chaos encampment. Fine, then. Explain goblin wolfriders. Or any sort of greenskin, for that matter. Actually they're hobgoblin wolf riders and I can't hire them. I CAN hire the Armoured Orcs though. But let's look at it this way: Where do you think those guys got their crossbows in the first place? I somehow doubt they went to the Dark Elves for them.
Yeah...You just gotta wonder how the humies got within earshot of the orcs to offer them the crossbows without the orcs just killing them and taking the crossbows...I mean, don't orcs just want to fight? |
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Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:11 pm
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Lethkhar Everlasting Chaos Lethkhar Everlasting Chaos Lethkhar Daemon_King I think you don't quite understand what he's saying. Humans would offer Giants cattle, shinie things, and ale inexchange for fighting for them, and loading that massive cannon at Middenheim. Still...They should at least have a rule where if the humans get too close, the giant gets hungry or something...I mean, it's not like giants have a whole lot of self-control... The Empire's a big place, with many, MANY cattle. A full Giant is one that will not attack humans. And if there's ever a shortage of cows they just steer the Giant into the nearest Orc/Beastman/Chaos encampment. Fine, then. Explain goblin wolfriders. Or any sort of greenskin, for that matter. Actually they're hobgoblin wolf riders and I can't hire them. I CAN hire the Armoured Orcs though. But let's look at it this way: Where do you think those guys got their crossbows in the first place? I somehow doubt they went to the Dark Elves for them. Yeah...You just gotta wonder how the humies got within earshot of the orcs to offer them the crossbows without the orcs just killing them and taking the crossbows...I mean, don't orcs just want to fight?
Well, in older info, Ruglud, I believe, looted a Crossbow, and eventually had his fellows do the same. Maggot is just a lucky gobbo that fell down a very large cliff and landed uninjured.
And I have no idea why he's sell his service, unless it was a " If you do this, you'll get more, tougher enemies to fight." |
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Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:57 pm
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Drachyench_The_Eternal Lethkhar Everlasting Chaos Lethkhar Everlasting Chaos The Empire's a big place, with many, MANY cattle. A full Giant is one that will not attack humans. And if there's ever a shortage of cows they just steer the Giant into the nearest Orc/Beastman/Chaos encampment. Fine, then. Explain goblin wolfriders. Or any sort of greenskin, for that matter. Actually they're hobgoblin wolf riders and I can't hire them. I CAN hire the Armoured Orcs though. But let's look at it this way: Where do you think those guys got their crossbows in the first place? I somehow doubt they went to the Dark Elves for them. Yeah...You just gotta wonder how the humies got within earshot of the orcs to offer them the crossbows without the orcs just killing them and taking the crossbows...I mean, don't orcs just want to fight? Well, in older info, Ruglud, I believe, looted a Crossbow, and eventually had his fellows do the same. Maggot is just a lucky gobbo that fell down a very large cliff and landed uninjured. And I have no idea why he's sell his service, unless it was a " If you do this, you'll get more, tougher enemies to fight."
Ok, so the looted crossbows makes sense. But I'd assume they probably work for ammo and more crossbows. I'm sure it would be easier to go kill someone and be rewarded with crossbows/bolts than it is to track down people with crossbows and kill them. xd |
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Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:11 pm
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Everlasting Chaos Drachyench_The_Eternal Lethkhar Everlasting Chaos Lethkhar Everlasting Chaos The Empire's a big place, with many, MANY cattle. A full Giant is one that will not attack humans. And if there's ever a shortage of cows they just steer the Giant into the nearest Orc/Beastman/Chaos encampment. Fine, then. Explain goblin wolfriders. Or any sort of greenskin, for that matter. Actually they're hobgoblin wolf riders and I can't hire them. I CAN hire the Armoured Orcs though. But let's look at it this way: Where do you think those guys got their crossbows in the first place? I somehow doubt they went to the Dark Elves for them. Yeah...You just gotta wonder how the humies got within earshot of the orcs to offer them the crossbows without the orcs just killing them and taking the crossbows...I mean, don't orcs just want to fight? Well, in older info, Ruglud, I believe, looted a Crossbow, and eventually had his fellows do the same. Maggot is just a lucky gobbo that fell down a very large cliff and landed uninjured. And I have no idea why he's sell his service, unless it was a " If you do this, you'll get more, tougher enemies to fight." Ok, so the looted crossbows makes sense. But I'd assume they probably work for ammo and more crossbows. I'm sure it would be easier to go kill someone and be rewarded with crossbows/bolts than it is to track down people with crossbows and kill them. xd
But if the people with the crossbows came to you... |
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Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:55 am
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Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:07 am
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To further bring the Empire back into topic of it's own thread, here's my list of an Empire army I'm thinking of working on. It's just over 2.000 pts. and contains units that people here think "suck" and are generally bad. If providing critique, please be constructive. BE constructive. I myself am fond of themed armies with plenty of flavour and diversity, hence the smattering amount of troops of different types. The army will either be from Marienburg (I am Dutch after all) or a generic Empire army with units drawn from all over the Empire, such as handgunners and cannons from Nuln, swordsmen from Bogenhafen and of course, the Greatswords of Carroburg! Which will provide for an interesting palette of colours and the such.
LORD.
Lord Visser (Elector Count) - Meteoric armour, shield, pistol and the Sword of Sigismund.
HEROES.
Captain Van Buren - Full plate, shield, lance and barded warhorse.
Captain Willem - Full plate and halberd.
Captain Chevaux - Full plate, shield and pistol.
CORE.
Halberdiers regiment "NASSAU" (20) - Full command & will be joined by captain Willem.
Spearmen regiment (20) - Full command and shields.
Swordsmen regiment (20) - Full command & will be joined by captain Chevaux.
Handgunner detachment (8 ).
Handgunner detachment (8 ).
Free Company (20) - Full command.
Free Company (20) - Full command.
Crossbow regiment (20) - Marksman.
SPECIAL.
the Greatswords of Carroburg (10) - Full command & will be joined by Lord Visser.
Pistoleers (5) - Will be joined by captain Van Buren.
Great Cannon.
Great Cannon.
RARE.
Helblaster Volleygun.
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