Asatru a la Deoridhe

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

Hi...nice thread smile

I feel kind of silly asking this, but would anyone know where I could look to see if there is a Norse Pagan group in the Ohio/Michigan area? I've looked on witchvox, but all I'm finding is crap like Celtic-Faerie-Eclectic-Goddess worship...nothing of substance.

Thank you for any help redface  

[Deoridhe]

The listserv I mentioned is one place to ask about Kindreds. You can also look through the Ring of Troth, but they do tolerate racist organizations so you need to keep an ear open to the rhetoric. There are subtleties where what appears to be racist rhetoric (only the descendants shall worship the gods, in brief) isn't; one of the good tests is whether most American blacks would be acceptable and whether people of purely Italian descent would be - the former should be yes (the majority of American blacks are likely to have northern European ancestry) and the latter is no (Italians never worshiped the gods) if they aren't racist.

If you start hearing about how all Europeans magically get northern European cred but the introduction of non-European ancestors destroys any possible cred, you're dealing with racists.  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

The listserv you mentioned on the Lokeans and Asatru thread?  

[Deoridhe]

I thought I linked it here, too, but I'm sure it's the same one.  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

Right. Thank you!  

[Deoridhe]

I'm stealing Ulfrikr's post on elements to post in here until he starts his own thread (and likely after; I prefer keeping what I steal and like).

^_____^

Ulfrikr inn Hrafn

Hmmm, Tea has provided a good list, but you need to also be aware that there are more than just four in some traditions. In the Germanic Folkways, there are two sets [of elements], as follows:

Ice - Pre-existing element - Niflheim
Fire - Pre-existing element - Muspellheim
Water - Pre-existing element - Niflheim
Air - Byproduct of action of Fire on Ice creating steam/atmosphere
Yeast - Pre-existing element - Niflheim
Venom - Pre-existing element - Niflheim
Iron - Pre-existing element - Muspellheim
Stone - Pre-exisitng element - Muspellheim and/or already exists on its own.
Salt - Pre-existing element present in the ice - Niflheim

From the Body of Ymir are made:

Flesh - Earth
Bone - Stone
Blood - Water
Eye - Sun
Mind - Moon
Breath - Wind
Brains - Cloud
Skull - Heavens
Hair - Plants

Possible correlation between the two elemental systems:

Flesh - Earth - Closest affinity to Iron, Stone, Water, Ice
Bone - Stone - Closest affinity to Stone
Blood - Water - Closest affinity to Water also in the case of Oceans, Salt.
Eye - Sun - Closest affinity to Muspellheim
Mind - Moon - Closest affinity to Stone, whilst it is a product of
Muspellheim, the Moon has cooled and is not a radiative body, but instead a reflective one.
Breath - Wind - Closest affinity to Air
Brains - Cloud - Closest affintiy to Air and Water
Skull - Heavens - Tough one this. The skull bounds the universe as we know it, and would allude to either a steady state universe or a constantly
shrinking universe.
Hair - Plants - Closest affinity to Air, Water, Stone

 

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

Book question!

I'm reading Edred Thorsson's "Northern Magic" at the moment and while some of it is interesting, a few things he has mentioned in his book don't seem right.

Is Thorsson considered a decent author to read? Or am I wasting my time (at least I didn't waste my money; it was free!)?  

[Deoridhe]

Ultraviolett1127

Book question!

I'm reading Edred Thorsson's "Northern Magic" at the moment and while some of it is interesting, a few things he has mentioned in his book don't seem right.

Is Thorsson considered a decent author to read? Or am I wasting my time (at least I didn't waste my money; it was free!)?

He's good, but he did become a Satanist, so keep your salt lick handy. I think an important thing to remember is that no individual, no matter how much you may like them, holds "truth". Thorsson has a degree in the area of Celtic and Germanic studies - I can't remember if it's anthropology or linguistics - but I know I have one friend who gets pissy at all his Celtic stuff. I didn't mind his Germanic, but I found him overly formal, ritualistic, and with the common modern problem of being god-obsessed.  

[TeaDidikai]

Deoridhe

He's good, but he did become a Satanist, so keep your salt lick handy.

What does being a Satanist have to do with the price of me in China?  

[Deoridhe]

TeaDidikai

Deoridhe

He's good, but he did become a Satanist, so keep your salt lick handy.

What does being a Satanist have to do with the price of me in China?

Profoundly different ethical codes and worldviews, and in his casual work he is not at all clear on what is UPG and what is his research, so one needs to be alert (imo) to what is his UPG and what isn't, and then examine that UPG for which system it's coming from within.

With Gundarsson, by comparison, the challenge is to separate out all of the "whee, I'm writing a heathen book" crap from things of actual substance. Amusingly, years after reading his books and rejecting one of the chapters (everyone having their own, personal valkyrie as soul (keep in mind in this worldsview we have lots of souls)), I read a post from him on a listserv about how he didn't know what he was thinking when he wrote that chapter.  

[TeaDidikai]

Deoridhe

Profoundly different ethical codes and worldviews,

Could you give me an example of where you have seen this in his work?

I ask because I can understand the issues with him not being direct about what is research and what is UPG, but I have heard more than one Asatru bring up him being a Satanist and I'm always befuddled by this. The Satanists I know who do Anton's work justice can fit with other traditions without batting an eyelash.

While I'm not saying that you have any prejudice against Satanism, there seems to be a lot of issues between Asatru and Satanism that I don't quite understand and the mention of Satanism as a cautionary example has me befuddled.

One Asatru woman I knew went over the deep end and ended up breaking hospitality over my defense of Satanism as a philosophical construct.

By your understanding or information from other Asatru, is there a reason that saying "He's a Satanist" would address some of the errors in his assertions and if so- could you give an example from one of his books?  

[Deoridhe]

TeaDidikai

Deoridhe

Profoundly different ethical codes and worldviews,

Could you give me an example of where you have seen this in his work?

I ask because I can understand the issues with him not being direct about what is research and what is UPG, but I have heard more than one Asatru bring up him being a Satanist and I'm always befuddled by this. The Satanists I know who do Anton's work justice can fit with other traditions without batting an eyelash.

While I'm not saying that you have any prejudice against Satanism, there seems to be a lot of issues between Asatru and Satanism that I don't quite understand and the mention of Satanism as a cautionary example has me befuddled.

One Asatru woman I knew went over the deep end and ended up breaking hospitality over my defense of Satanism as a philosophical construct.

By your understanding or information from other Asatru, is there a reason that saying "He's a Satanist" would address some of the errors in his assertions and if so- could you give an example from one of his books?

To be honest, I've not looked at much his work since I learned it of his predilections. I think I remember occassionally objecting to his moral standings on different runes, feeling they were overly black & white, but I can't remember any specifics off the top of my head.

I pass on the warning as it was passed on to me, much as I pass on that Gundarsson has rethought much of what he published and Aswynn being prone to being "ridden" by Odin in airports and collapsing. It's part gossip, part a reminder that all sources must be approached not as some sort of universal truth but rather as a flawed mirror of truth, and part amusement value (in the last case most of all).

I have no problems with Satanism per se; it's fairly standard for me to include a disclaimer list with any author I recommend.  

[TeaDidikai]

Hey Deo? The person who passed on that warning- what was their explanation as to why it was relevant?  

[patch99329]

I noticed in places around the forum you refer to what I -assume- to be Odin, by things other than his name.
Is there a particular reason for this?

Also, either you or tea mentioned something about some Asatru choosing not to worship loki. Again, is there a reason for this?

Thanks alot,
I enjoy this thread, I know nothing of Asatru. ninja  

[Deoridhe]

TeaDidikai

Hey Deo? The person who passed on that warning- what was their explanation as to why it was relevant?

That it gives more info about the writer's pov, if I remember correctly. I got the warning some fifteen years ago.

patch99329

I noticed in places around the forum you refer to what I -assume- to be Odin, by things other than his name.
Is there a particular reason for this?

A couple. First of all, kennings (references to people that are not their names and reference their relationships or what they have done) is central to the Eddas; lots of them show up. My old man is also known for his names; he has about 80 listed in Grimnirsmal (indeed, the surname for Deoridhe - Grimsdottir - references his name Grimnir). Indeed, one could successfully argue that Freya and Frey's "names" are actually titles (Lady and Lord) and that the mixing up of Freya and Odin's wife is due to both being called "Lady" but the monks who wrote stuff down not getting that those were kennings, not names.

Secondly, as I've done more and more within the bounds of Asatur, I've felt less and less comfortable using the proper names of the gods. I can't really explain it rationally, and I know my usual kenning is more than a little self-aggrandizing, but it seems more natural to me to refer to him as my old man than by any of his names.

patch99329

Also, either you or tea mentioned something about some Asatru choosing not to worship loki. Again, is there a reason for this?

Sleipnir's mother is referenced during Ragnorak emerging with a boat filled with the dead from Hel, presumably to fight on Surt's side. A lot of people object to his stance opposite the gods and hold that he is evil. There is some evidence this attitude comes more from the twisting of the mythology when it hit a Christian worldview than is inherent in the actual situation.

My kindred discourages newcomers from toasting him because historically when he was toasted frivolously, dinner burned.