In a bad mood? come here and rant till you feel better

[TeaDidikai]

CuAnnan

Gho the Girl

I understand all too well where you're coming from.
However, and this is not a defense of your mother nor an attempt to defend her actions, if she's anything like mine it came from the position of "I really don't want my son stabbed".

[Recursive Paradox]

CuAnnan

Gho the Girl

I understand all too well where you're coming from.
However, and this is not a defense of your mother nor an attempt to defend her actions, if she's anything like mine it came from the position of "I really don't want my son stabbed".

[Recursive Paradox]

Can someone please tell me how the ******** a word designed specifically to end the othering and marginalization built into our language against trans people is somehow offensive?

Cis and trans are used to keep the linguistic assumption that non trans people are the expected outcome, the base standard for existence out of our discourse. That way, the very language we use to discuss transgendered folk and our issues (as well as how cis people relate to this) doesn't contribute to our marginalization and oppression. So how the ******** is it offensive to use the word cis man or cis woman (as compared to trans man and trans woman) when you're discussing trans issues and cisgendered privilege? It isn't like anyone expects it to be used in day to day stuff (just like I don't call myself a trans woman in day to day stuff).

It sure is ******** better than trans woman vs. normal/real/biological woman.  

[TheDisreputableDog]

Recursive Paradox

Can someone please tell me how the ******** a word designed specifically to end the othering and marginalization built into our language against trans people is somehow offensive?

Cis and trans are used to keep the linguistic assumption that non trans people are the expected outcome, the base standard for existence out of our discourse. That way, the very language we use to discuss transgendered folk and our issues (as well as how cis people relate to this) doesn't contribute to our marginalization and oppression. So how the ******** is it offensive to use the word cis man or cis woman (as compared to trans man and trans woman) when you're discussing trans issues and cisgendered privilege? It isn't like anyone expects it to be used in day to day stuff (just like I don't call myself a trans woman in day to day stuff).

It sure is ******** better than trans woman vs. normal/real/biological woman.

This. It boggles my mind. When I discovered the word cisgender I was so happy I didn't have to keep using "bio-" or "non-trans" or "natal." Even though I have to explain its definition to most people who hear it, even that is for once a decent proposition because it doesn't set up a real/fake dichotomy, or even a real/constructed dichotomy (because things that are constructed aren't real, and cis identities aren't just as constructed as trans ones). It's just two different valid ways of looking at one's identity and how it relates to the world. This is a Good Thing people.  

[Recursive Paradox]

TheDisreputableDog

Recursive Paradox

Can someone please tell me how the ******** a word designed specifically to end the othering and marginalization built into our language against trans people is somehow offensive?

Cis and trans are used to keep the linguistic assumption that non trans people are the expected outcome, the base standard for existence out of our discourse. That way, the very language we use to discuss transgendered folk and our issues (as well as how cis people relate to this) doesn't contribute to our marginalization and oppression. So how the ******** is it offensive to use the word cis man or cis woman (as compared to trans man and trans woman) when you're discussing trans issues and cisgendered privilege? It isn't like anyone expects it to be used in day to day stuff (just like I don't call myself a trans woman in day to day stuff).

It sure is ******** better than trans woman vs. normal/real/biological woman.

This. It boggles my mind. When I discovered the word cisgender I was so happy I didn't have to keep using "bio-" or "non-trans" or "natal." Even though I have to explain its definition to most people who hear it, even that is for once a decent proposition because it doesn't set up a real/fake dichotomy, or even a real/constructed dichotomy (because things that are constructed aren't real, and cis identities aren't just as constructed as trans ones). It's just two different valid ways of looking at one's identity and how it relates to the world. This is a Good Thing people.

Enraged blog post on the matter  

[TeaDidikai]

You Idiot,
Romany =/= Rroma, and I'm not a ******** Rom, I'm Domari!  

[Chaos Blue]

TeaDidikai

You Idiot,
Romany =/= Rroma, and I'm not a ******** Rom, I'm Domari!

...  

[Collowrath]

TeaDidikai

You Idiot,
Romany =/= Rroma, and I'm not a ******** Rom, I'm Domari!

*tries to wrap his head around the divisions among different Rroma peoples, just becomes slightly more confused than before*

whee  

[TeaDidikai]

Chaos Blue

TeaDidikai

You Idiot,
Romany =/= Rroma, and I'm not a ******** Rom, I'm Domari!

...

Someone in real life.

Collowrath

TeaDidikai

You Idiot,
Romany =/= Rroma, and I'm not a ******** Rom, I'm Domari!

*tries to wrap his head around the divisions among different Rroma peoples, just becomes slightly more confused than before*

whee

Allow this analogy:

Rroma : Asian :: Japanese and Chinese : Romany and Domari

It's a bit more complex than that- but it's a good basic understanding. Like most Nationalities under a given Overarching Culture are divided up by governments, dialects and languages, and the like- the major difference (and the major reason a lot of people really have a hard time understanding Rroma culture) is that other groups have land. They have borders and it's really easy to assign a geographic location to an ethnicity, then break it down into traditions of said ethnicity. It gives people something tangible. Most of the Domari live in the Middle East and parts of Eastern Europe. Most of the Romany live in Western Europe and are the primary group of Rroma that have come to the US.

My aunt speculates based on where my Baba's family was captured during WWII that she was marrying someone who wasn't Domari... but that's really strange. The only other support for this is the use of some words that aren't part of the dialect we speak, but are found amongst other Rroma dialects- though that could have been a function of her time in the camp itself. ~shrugs~ We just don't know.

That said- when someone presents themselves as an Expert on The Rroma, and then says I'm not Rroma because I don't speak the very specific dialect they do, then I'm going to take issue with it. It's like saying that the Rroma of the Czech Republic aren't Rroma because they aren't English Romany.  

[Collowrath]

TeaDidikai

(and the major reason a lot of people really have a hard time understanding Rroma culture) is that other groups have land. They have borders and it's really easy to assign a geographic location to an ethnicity, then break it down into traditions of said ethnicity. It gives people something tangible. Most of the Domari live in the Middle East and parts of Eastern Europe. Most of the Romany live in Western Europe and are the primary group of Rroma that have come to the US.

I see. This was the difficulty for me - wiki (I know, not the best) was saying the Domari live in the Mid-East and I had the foreknowledge that there were pockets of Domari in Eastern Europe. Instant confusion - but then again, for essentially nomadic nations without borders, can you really make any definite assumptions as to x live here or there?

Quote:

My aunt speculates based on where my Baba's family was captured during WWII that she was marrying someone who wasn't Domari... but that's really strange. The only other support for this is the use of some words that aren't part of the dialect we speak, but are found amongst other Rroma dialects- though that could have been a function of her time in the camp itself. ~shrugs~ We just don't know.

Don't European Domari have regular interactions with other Rroma peoples? Or do the communities prefer to stay separate?

Quote:

That said- when someone presents themselves as an Expert on The Rroma, and then says I'm not Rroma because I don't speak the very specific dialect they do, then I'm going to take issue with it. It's like saying that the Rroma of the Czech Republic aren't Rroma because they aren't English Romany.

Except the language difference is from within - more like saying a Pole isn't a Slav because he doesn't speak Russian. Would that be more accurate?

There's a lot of ick factor in there. So much for being an expert.  

[TeaDidikai]

Collowrath

I see. This was the difficulty for me - wiki (I know, not the best) was saying the Domari live in the Mid-East and I had the foreknowledge that there were pockets of Domari in Eastern Europe. Instant confusion - but then again, for essentially nomadic nations without borders, can you really make any definite assumptions as to x live here or there?

Except, we aren't essentially nomadic nations any more than any other culture. Last stats I heard were about 8.5% of the Rroma population is what anthropologists would call "nomadic".

Historically we were- but then, when your only option is death or move, you tend to choose move.

Quote:

Don't European Domari have regular interactions with other Rroma peoples? Or do the communities prefer to stay separate?

Rroma politics are complex, and while there is usually mutual respect for other groups- that doesn't mean there aren't conflicts or differences that make contact nearly impossible in some cases.

My understanding from a friend living in France is that there are Romany there that will actually eat foods that are considered by my family to be about as close to an unforgivable sin as you can get. Hell, there are Rroma in the South East USA that are in a very similar situation. Some of it has to do with purity laws- other aspects have to do with "land rights", still other aspects have to do with personal conflicts that boomed into intergroup-feuds.

That isn't to say it's impossible, hell, most of my friends that I chill with in the local community are actually Sinti.

Quote:

Except the language difference is from within - more like saying a Pole isn't a Slav because he doesn't speak Russian. Would that be more accurate?

There's a lot of ick factor in there. So much for being an expert.

It's a little more off than even that- it's like saying a Pole isn't a Slav because they don't speak a very specific dialect of Russian used only by a handful of the people in a specific part of Moscow.  

[TeaDidikai]

YES!

That gal from work- before anything official could actually happen, actually apologized.

It was a chicken s**t apology, she passed it through the Hubby, but it was an apology- she said she had thought it through, and that she could understand how offensive it was.  

[too2sweet]

TeaDidikai

Calixti

SammyInsanity

Indifferent: I'm indifferent about growing up =/

It gets easier, or so I'm told.

They lied.

I have to agree with Tea, being a "grown up" sucks, and it doesn't look like it'll be getting any easier anytime soon. gonk  

[Collowrath]

TeaDidikai

Collowrath

I see. This was the difficulty for me - wiki (I know, not the best) was saying the Domari live in the Mid-East and I had the foreknowledge that there were pockets of Domari in Eastern Europe. Instant confusion - but then again, for essentially nomadic nations without borders, can you really make any definite assumptions as to x live here or there?

Except, we aren't essentially nomadic nations any more than any other culture. Last stats I heard were about 8.5% of the Rroma population is what anthropologists would call "nomadic".

Historically we were- but then, when your only option is death or move, you tend to choose move.

Ah, I understand.

Quote:

It's a little more off than even that- it's like saying a Pole isn't a Slav because they don't speak a very specific dialect of Russian used only by a handful of the people in a specific part of Moscow.

Which is even worse. sad

Also, about the gal from work - I'm glad she apologized, even if she was too embarrassed to do so to your face.  

[TeaDidikai]

Collowrath

Which is even worse. sad

Yeah. There's a lot to this- there are also folks who don't count the Domari amongst the Roma, but it's a lot of No True Scotsman BS as far as I am concerned.

Quote:

Also, about the gal from work - I'm glad she apologized, even if she was too embarrassed to do so to your face.

~nods~

Not brave enough to say sorry to my face is a clear indication of being a Coward. But I can live with that over a Racist Coward.