Asatru a la Deoridhe

[TeaDidikai]

patch99329

TeaDidikai

Deoridhe

I'm a little baffled by your use of the term, to be honest; it's one I tend to avoid.

Sad to say but true- most people consider any style of Norse Reconstruction to be a "Viking Religion" not too unlike how any ditheistic witchcult is "Wicca".

I can however understand why Patch is looking to them- as they are a prime example of a group of people who traveled out of their homeland and exchanged culture with those around them.

I think I may have totally misread this post and xp can you explain what you mean again?
Does it tie in with the use of the word 'invasion' above?

Thankies,
Emma.

Rereading, I think I misunderstood Deo's post. sweatdrop

I was suggesting that modern culture has created a fantasy based on a limited understanding and that it has become bound to our language.  

[Deoridhe]

TeaDidikai

Rereading, I think I misunderstood Deo's post. sweatdrop

I was suggesting that modern culture has created a fantasy based on a limited understanding and that it has become bound to our language.

I would agree that that happened with the word "viking", definitely. It also puts an emphasis on what is, quite frankly, a rather dishonerable/cruel/exploitive practice in the past that is, weirdly, recast as "honorable".

Now, I'm close to Odin and Loki, so my honor - such connotations as they word may carry - is not exactly my by-word, but I'm honest about such. This recasting exploitation as honor baffles me, for it's both inaccurate and blatantly obvious - which doesn't speak well for the perpetrators' wit.  

[patch99329]

Deoridhe

I would agree that that happened with the word "viking".

My use of the word? If so I apologise.  

[Deoridhe]

patch99329

Deoridhe

I would agree that that happened with the word "viking".

My use of the word? If so I apologise.

No, just in general. I had no real context for you use of the word, so I can't say you fell into this trap. It is, however, a very easy trap to fall into. "Honor" is not the single-note that many modern pagans try to make it into.  

[TeaDidikai]

Deoridhe

"Honor" is not the single-note that many modern pagans try to make it into.

How do you view "Honor"?
How does this fit with how your Kindred view Honor?
How does that fit with how Asatru in general view Honor in your experience outside of your Kindred?  

[Deoridhe]

TeaDidikai

Deoridhe

"Honor" is not the single-note that many modern pagans try to make it into.

How do you view "Honor"?
How does this fit with how your Kindred view Honor?
How does that fit with how Asatru in general view Honor in your experience outside of your Kindred?

I'm not sure how I view honor. I tend to focus on "functionality" and "integrity" as moral concepts, rather than honor. Honor has so many connotations... and I've had some rather upright people inform me I should not use the term to apply to myself. I am rather Odinnic.

My kindred really doesn't view honor. We discuss morality on and off, but most of us tend to have fairly fluid moral systems. There's definitely a "do it, don't talk about it" flavor to our moral systems, though.

I have met one self-stated "honorable" Asatruar. He is/was dedicated to Thor. His "honor" required him to respond to a joke about kicking someone off the internet for being stupid by objecting, posting at length about the first amendment and how he had fought in the war to safeguard those rights for us, and to continue wanking far into the night despite stating outright that he knew that 1) it was a joke and meant to be funny, 2) it was functionally impossible to actually do, and 3) I'm pretty rabid about Constitutional Rights, too, despite my lack of military experience.

He defriended me over it, stating I was horribly dishonorable and that I was making fun of him in order to win friends and influence people. I continued to defend his reputation (for all his pole-up-the-assness, he was a stand-up guy; in fact, it's likely BECAUSE of his pole-up-the-assness...etc...) while being alternately amazed and amused at how a simple joke that I didn't even think of, just linked to, lead to this.

It's on FandomWank somewhere. The person who thought of it posted a link to my journal there.

Most of the other people I've met who lay claims to the self-naming of "honor" either want to go back to the glorious 800s, or think honor is chivalry and don't understand why I roll my eyes and avoid them.

I have a short list of people I would consider "honorable", which is short-hand for 1) minimal bullshit, 2) self-awareness, 3) integrity, and 4) a reliable moral code that allows me to predict their behavior.  

[TeaDidikai]

Deoridhe

and I've had some rather upright people inform me I should not use the term to apply to myself. I am rather Odinnic.

To what degree do you agree with them?

Quote:

Most of the other people I've met who lay claims to the self-naming of "honor" either want to go back to the glorious 800s,

That has been the bulk of my experience.

Quote:

I have a short list of people I would consider "honorable", which is short-hand for 1) minimal bullshit, 2) self-awareness, 3) integrity, and 4) a reliable moral code that allows me to predict their behavior.

Interesting.

Now- when I think of honor, in addition to "morality" or a code of cultural conduct- I also think of a "tally" of Personal and Familial "merit".

Does such a thing fit in your world view on Honor as well?  

[Deoridhe]

TeaDidikai

Deoridhe

and I've had some rather upright people inform me I should not use the term to apply to myself. I am rather Odinnic.

To what degree do you agree with them?

I don't necessarily agree with their reasons, but I do somewhat agree with their conclusions. I'm too flighty, imo, to be anything like very honorable.

TeaDidikai

Quote:

I have a short list of people I would consider "honorable", which is short-hand for 1) minimal bullshit, 2) self-awareness, 3) integrity, and 4) a reliable moral code that allows me to predict their behavior.

Interesting.

Now- when I think of honor, in addition to "morality" or a code of cultural conduct- I also think of a "tally" of Personal and Familial "merit".

Does such a thing fit in your world view on Honor as well?

Hmmmm... that's an interesting angle into it. I'm not sure it fits, but I do know that there is a quiet merit system in the back of my head in terms of how much I value the opinion of a given person, but I think there are many different types and contexts of merit. A person I may trust with my life I would not trust with my soul, to give a simple contrast, but both may have merit with me or with those around them.

I'll have to think further on this, though.  

[TeaDidikai]

Deoridhe

Hmmmm... that's an interesting angle into it. I'm not sure it fits, but I do know that there is a quiet merit system in the back of my head in terms of how much I value the opinion of a given person, but I think there are many different types and contexts of merit. A person I may trust with my life I would not trust with my soul, to give a simple contrast, but both may have merit with me or with those around them.

I'll have to think further on this, though.

I would be very interested in additional insights that such thinking might provide. mrgreen  

[Daffodil the Destroyer]

At the risk of sounding like a complete noob... do you know of a good pronunciation guide for the names and words associated with Asatru? I've started to do some research and reading on it, and I find myself pretty lost as to how to pronounce some of these things - anything I say sounds wrong to me. I've found some sites that claim to have pronunciation guides but they were unhelpful to me.  

[Deoridhe]

Daffodil the Destroyer

At the risk of sounding like a complete noob... do you know of a good pronunciation guide for the names and words associated with Asatru? I've started to do some research and reading on it, and I find myself pretty lost as to how to pronounce some of these things - anything I say sounds wrong to me. I've found some sites that claim to have pronunciation guides but they were unhelpful to me.

You'd have to look into Old Norse or Old Gothic. I pronounce them.... badly.

I know the d in Odin is the soft dth sound. It's the same sound I use when I (mis)pronounce my online name.  

[Ulfrikr inn Hrafn]

Deoridhe

TeaDidikai

Rereading, I think I misunderstood Deo's post. sweatdrop

I was suggesting that modern culture has created a fantasy based on a limited understanding and that it has become bound to our language.

I would agree that that happened with the word "viking", definitely. It also puts an emphasis on what is, quite frankly, a rather dishonerable/cruel/exploitive practice in the past that is, weirdly, recast as "honorable".

Now, I'm close to Odin and Loki, so my honor - such connotations as they word may carry - is not exactly my by-word, but I'm honest about such. This recasting exploitation as honor baffles me, for it's both inaccurate and blatantly obvious - which doesn't speak well for the perpetrators' wit.

Heilsan,

One needs to be careful in assigning modern, humanist, ethical standards when discussing our ancestral folkways. The practice of going a viking was actually considered to be very honourable. The primary reason is one of the tribal mindset of our ancestors. Anyone outside the sippe was, effectively, a stranger and therefore a potential foe. Indeed, the very first strophe of the Havamal speaks clearly to this concept.

Keep your senses keen
When you enter the hall,
Take care and look around you-
You never know when you may
Find an attacker hiding in wait

Hence the practice of viking, was done to persons whom were outside the Innangarðr, and hence were outside the bounds of frith. This was a common cultural pattern of behaviour of many human beings at the time, not only the 'Vikings'. Indeed, this tribal mindset still exists in many places upon the planet even today. Our ancestors were very big on having a 'good name', in other words, ones fame was very important, and being able to mount a viking expedition was something that was of great renown. Think of it in modern terms of chartering a private jet full of your friends, armed to the teeth, dropping in on a neighbouring country and taking their stuff. Yep, in modern terms a reprehensible practice, but never-the-less, if someone could do this, and did, they'd at least gain notoriety.

Certainly, within the paradigm of our modern society, the social conventions of our ancestral folk seems out of line with what we now espouse as the standard social order. As such, those whom espouse the tenets of our ancestral folkways as they once existed, persons whom are true reconstructionists, tend to come across negatively to the majority of people, specifically due to the fact that their worldview is that of a time which has now passed.

For myself, a balance between the ancestral traditions and modern standards needs to be achieved, as certainly there are a great number of elements of the culture of our ancestors which I find very much appropriate for our modern society, far more relevant than that of either Secular Humanism/Universalism, or modern 'Christian' thought.

Ver thu heil  

[TeaDidikai]

That's an interesting take Ulfrikr. Not the one I have myself: it is my understanding that it was not the means- but the results of being able to provide and sustain one's family within the (often hostile) environment that granted such honor.

That the quoted passage of the Havamal is a testament to just how hostile it really was- because when we look at other passages, we also see elements of hospitality traditions as guests are welcomed into Halls.  

[Ulfrikr inn Hrafn]

TeaDidikai

That's an interesting take Ulfrikr. Not the one I have myself: it is my understanding that it was not the means- but the results of being able to provide and sustain one's family within the (often hostile) environment that granted such honor.

Will, means, and results are the three concepts which one can refer to as being indicative of honour within the context of going a viking. Reading the Sagas will provide additional insight into the thought processes behind such concepts. If I remember correctly Njala has some interesting bits on the subject matter. Other sagas refer to such ideas as well.

I can understand how results are viewed as the only source of honour, but our ancestors also considered having the means and will to go and engage in a viking to be an honourable pursuit, even if nothing specifically was achieved. If memory serves me correctly, there have been instances where raids and expeditions were unsuccessful the first time, and they needed to be undertaken again, but even though the original expedition is unsuccessful, simply the action of undertaking the expedition was seen as honourable in and of itself. Naturally, when one gained results, the level of honour went up even higher, but honour, like luck can be considered something that one has a store of and can be increased and decreased by action, with certain actions gaining one more honour than others.

TeaDidikai

That the quoted passage of the Havamal is a testament to just how hostile it really was - because when we look at other passages, we also see elements of hospitality traditions as guests are welcomed into Halls.

I concur that hospitality was a very important part of our ancestral folkways, that is indeed indicated as part of the Havamal. The presupposition is that between the first strophe and the second, that the traveller has found a place where no foe threatens, and indeed, the second strophe refers to the process one undertakes when one is host to a guest, when one chooses to extend frith to that person. Now, it may be grith that is extended instead, which is a truce, more than a state of 'peace', where one is accorded safety for a particular time-frame. This is inferred by some elements of the Havamal which speak to such things as friendship sometimes being short lived, and that sometimes guests tend to end up like fish...

Ver thu heil  

[TeaDidikai]

While I can understand where you are coming from, I am still having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that the culture would view a failed attempt at viking as an honorable thing.

It smacks of fodder for a flyting should the issue come up.