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 Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:32 pm
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Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:46 am
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xLady Tsukiyox One Dead Memory I am against abortion and yes for religious and personal reasons I personally think it's wrong. That's Just my views on it. I don't go screaming my views at people and automatically want them to take my side and get prissy when someone doesn't agree with me. I respect everyone's opinion on the matter although it was a lot to read D: Why do you think it's wrong?
I don't like the idea of terminating a life. I don't see a baby as a clump of tissue when it's first created I see a life. I wouldn't sit there in front of Planed parent hood screaming at women who are doing it like most of those nut jobs,but I feel sorry for women who are using Abortion as birth control because they forgot to use protection which some girls do, unfortunately it happens or they have friends punch their stomach till they miscarry [my brother knew a girl who did this several times]. But that's just me I guess.
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Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:44 pm
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Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:49 pm
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Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:56 am
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One Dead Memory xLady Tsukiyox One Dead Memory I am against abortion and yes for religious and personal reasons I personally think it's wrong. That's Just my views on it. I don't go screaming my views at people and automatically want them to take my side and get prissy when someone doesn't agree with me. I respect everyone's opinion on the matter although it was a lot to read D: Why do you think it's wrong?
I don't like the idea of terminating a life. I don't see a baby as a clump of tissue when it's first created I see a life. I wouldn't sit there in front of Planed parent hood screaming at women who are doing it like most of those nut jobs,but I feel sorry for women who are using Abortion as birth control because they forgot to use protection which some girls do, unfortunately it happens or they have friends punch their stomach till they miscarry [my brother knew a girl who did this several times]. But that's just me I guess.
However, the fetus when it's a zygote IS a clump of cells. Or to put it more literally, the blastocyst is an actual clump of cells. The time we can use the term "baby" or even "child" accurately is when it comes out of the birth canal. Calling it anything before that period of time, is ignoring the cycle of fertilization and being intellectually dishonest when it comes to the cold hard facts. |
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Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:58 am
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Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:24 am
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xLady Tsukiyox One Dead Memory xLady Tsukiyox One Dead Memory I am against abortion and yes for religious and personal reasons I personally think it's wrong. That's Just my views on it. I don't go screaming my views at people and automatically want them to take my side and get prissy when someone doesn't agree with me. I respect everyone's opinion on the matter although it was a lot to read D: Why do you think it's wrong?
I don't like the idea of terminating a life. I don't see a baby as a clump of tissue when it's first created I see a life. I wouldn't sit there in front of Planed parent hood screaming at women who are doing it like most of those nut jobs,but I feel sorry for women who are using Abortion as birth control because they forgot to use protection which some girls do, unfortunately it happens or they have friends punch their stomach till they miscarry [my brother knew a girl who did this several times]. But that's just me I guess.
It's not just forgetting to use protection though. Condoms do break. A women's life can be endanger. A fetus can have severe malformation that can harm it's chances of survival. There is a chance that Birth Control does not work. There is no 100% way to prevent a pregnancy yet. However going to Planned Parenthood isn't the only source of abortion. There are back alley abortions. Which are more dangerous than legalized abortion. You take away abortion then you're going to have more women dying from infections caused by having a metal coat hanger shoved up their crotch. However, the fetus when it's a zygote IS a clump of cells. Or to put it more literally, the blastocyst is an actual clump of cells. The time we can use the term "baby" or even "child" accurately is when it comes out of the birth canal. Calling it anything before that period of time, is ignoring the cycle of fertilization and being intellectually dishonest when it comes to the cold hard facts.
That was a very intelligent post. Thank you for using science. |
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Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:24 am
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I am your Mord Sith xLady Tsukiyox One Dead Memory xLady Tsukiyox One Dead Memory I am against abortion and yes for religious and personal reasons I personally think it's wrong. That's Just my views on it. I don't go screaming my views at people and automatically want them to take my side and get prissy when someone doesn't agree with me. I respect everyone's opinion on the matter although it was a lot to read D: Why do you think it's wrong?
I don't like the idea of terminating a life. I don't see a baby as a clump of tissue when it's first created I see a life. I wouldn't sit there in front of Planed parent hood screaming at women who are doing it like most of those nut jobs,but I feel sorry for women who are using Abortion as birth control because they forgot to use protection which some girls do, unfortunately it happens or they have friends punch their stomach till they miscarry [my brother knew a girl who did this several times]. But that's just me I guess.
It's not just forgetting to use protection though. Condoms do break. A women's life can be endanger. A fetus can have severe malformation that can harm it's chances of survival. There is a chance that Birth Control does not work. There is no 100% way to prevent a pregnancy yet. However going to Planned Parenthood isn't the only source of abortion. There are back alley abortions. Which are more dangerous than legalized abortion. You take away abortion then you're going to have more women dying from infections caused by having a metal coat hanger shoved up their crotch. However, the fetus when it's a zygote IS a clump of cells. Or to put it more literally, the blastocyst is an actual clump of cells. The time we can use the term "baby" or even "child" accurately is when it comes out of the birth canal. Calling it anything before that period of time, is ignoring the cycle of fertilization and being intellectually dishonest when it comes to the cold hard facts. That was a very intelligent post. Thank you for using science. |
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Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:20 pm
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Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:28 pm
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xLady Tsukiyox I am your Mord Sith xLady Tsukiyox One Dead Memory xLady Tsukiyox One Dead Memory I am against abortion and yes for religious and personal reasons I personally think it's wrong. That's Just my views on it. I don't go screaming my views at people and automatically want them to take my side and get prissy when someone doesn't agree with me. I respect everyone's opinion on the matter although it was a lot to read D: Why do you think it's wrong?
I don't like the idea of terminating a life. I don't see a baby as a clump of tissue when it's first created I see a life. I wouldn't sit there in front of Planed parent hood screaming at women who are doing it like most of those nut jobs,but I feel sorry for women who are using Abortion as birth control because they forgot to use protection which some girls do, unfortunately it happens or they have friends punch their stomach till they miscarry [my brother knew a girl who did this several times]. But that's just me I guess.
It's not just forgetting to use protection though. Condoms do break. A women's life can be endanger. A fetus can have severe malformation that can harm it's chances of survival. There is a chance that Birth Control does not work. There is no 100% way to prevent a pregnancy yet. However going to Planned Parenthood isn't the only source of abortion. There are back alley abortions. Which are more dangerous than legalized abortion. You take away abortion then you're going to have more women dying from infections caused by having a metal coat hanger shoved up their crotch. However, the fetus when it's a zygote IS a clump of cells. Or to put it more literally, the blastocyst is an actual clump of cells. The time we can use the term "baby" or even "child" accurately is when it comes out of the birth canal. Calling it anything before that period of time, is ignoring the cycle of fertilization and being intellectually dishonest when it comes to the cold hard facts. That was a very intelligent post. Thank you for using science. Thank you and you're welcome :3
I was waiting for someone else to come along and use proven facts for this debate. |
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Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:45 am
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Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:45 pm
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I recently gathered my thoughts and solidified what is essentially my entire stance on abortion in a post that I made on another forum, and I feel like sharing it here. It's really long, so I'm reducing the font size so as to not stretch the page.
Quote: Abortion is probably the issue I feel the most strongly about out of everything I enjoy debating, so I could in theory prattle on about this for hours, but I tend to get a bit out of hand and will try to keep it short.
I am completely and thoroughly pro-choice, in all situations. All situations. Here is my justification.
From a compassionate standpoint: I honestly couldn't give a rat's rear end about how the woman got pregnant. I don't care if she used protection or not. I don't care if she was married. I don't care if it was a one-night's stand. I don't care if she was a hooker. I don't care if she was a loose teenager. I don't care if she was a deadbeat crack addict for goodness' sakes. I don't care if she was raped (except to the extent that I care for her well-being). The day I try to make illogical exceptions to a blanket statement is the day I ignore that every woman's situation is a unique one, and I don't think highly enough of myself to assume that I'm in any place to judge every woman who has ever been pregnant or considered abortion.
Abortion should only be a question of whether or not a fetus intrinsically has a right to live at the expense of its mother, and that question should not consider how the fetus came into existence. One fetus doesn't deserve life more than any other just because of how its mother's sex life is going. I can't stand "only if she was raped!" pro-lifers, sorry if this applies to anybody here. On the same coin, I shake my head every time somebody brings up the pregnant woman's age, especially if "she should be forced to have the baby if she's just a stupid teenager!", because it's an unrealistic stance based on an arbitrary measurement... not to mention it blatantly ignores how teenage pregnancy is, more often than not, a result of the woman being in an abusive relationship.
If a woman wants to get an abortion, carry to term and raise the child, or give their child to somebody else after it's born, I'll completely support her any which way so long as the choice is hers, and not a choice she doesn't want but has been pressured or forced into.
From a religious standpoint: Although embryology is not my strongest science, I know enough about it that if souls do exist, I'm about 99% confident that an embryo does not have one at conception. Two weeks following conception, the zygote splits up into 16 totipotent cells (meaning, each cell is capable of becoming a separate being). Sometimes, these 16 cells do split off into being different beings. Some are sometimes miscarried, other sometimes develop, meaning the woman is pregnant with 2 of more children. If the soul entered the body at conception, do these children each have a fraction of a soul? If not, where did the other souls come from, if they did not enter at conception? How do you decide which child gets the soul that apparently entered at conception? It's not a question I've ever gotten an answer to, and if anybody has an answer to it I would very much like to hear it.
From a comparative standpoint: I cannot view abortion as tantamount to infanticide for the same reason that I cannot view myself as eligible for senior's discounts on bus tickets. Early childhood stages and fetal stages are separate and very different points of development and need to be viewed objectively, rather than viewed in terms of what they would be in the future under a set of assumed conditions.
From a legal standpoint: For reasons listed above, making abortions unavailable with circumstantial exceptions just doesn't make a lick of sense. It's not enforceable, and it's not realistic, and it's passing judgment where it doesn't need to be passed. It's an invasion of privacy for a question that can't even be answered with confidence anywhere even close to perfect.
As it stands, no person has any right to any part of my body that I do not wish for them to be using, regardless if the only way to stop that person is for them to die. This is incredibly important to abortion because there is literally no way to keep a fetus alive when it is removed from the parent. If there was a way, then perhaps I'd lean more toward an alternative that could retain the mother's right to bodily domain and keep the fetus alive where killing it would be rendered unnecessary.
In addition, I do not buy into the idea that the mother is responsible to carry the fetus to term because it's her "fault" (and I use that word very, very loosely) that it exists in the first place. On the same coin, I'm not under legal obligation to donate matching organs or blood or bone marrow to a child of mine who might have inherited a disease from any of my recessive genes, despite it being my fault that the child exists and needs such a donation to begin with. I probably would go through with it anyway, but the fact that I'm not obligated is an important implication to every single person's right to domain over their own body -- it's yours, you get to decide who uses it and who doesn't use it, and a fetus does not have special rights, even if it WAS considered a person.
Keep in mind that all of the above applies even if the person in need will die without your contribution. This opens to door to letting people educate themselves on the issue of murder vs. other types of homicide.
I suppose some might like to counter this with "just don't have sex!", but in the real world, people are going to have sex. People having sex is as much a guarantee as eventual death, the speed of light, and paying taxes, and that's just the way it is. Trying to punish them for it because they don't want an outcome which has always been optional by random chance in the first place (even before birth control, you were never guaranteed to get pregnant by having sex) is stupid, there's no other way to put it. Sex is important to people, especially to those in long-term adult relationships. Let's be real here, it's not like women take birth control pills "in case I get raped".
I support late-term abortion, because I know that most women wouldn't get an abortion that late into the pregnancy anyway unless there was a severe problem with the pregnancy itself. Even if some women would, I firmly believe that abortion is an issue where a few that I guess some would call "bad apples", who are unrelated to the rest of the candidates, shouldn't have to ruin it for the whole bunch.
The woman should be made aware of when it is ultimately safer for her to deliver the baby (whether by induced labour, caesarian, etc) instead of abort it, which actually is often the case with late-term abortion. I believe that women should decide to carry to term when this is the case, as it would be avoiding unnecessary killing as well as ensuring that the woman's body doesn't arbitrarily stop belonging to her, but it's not my call to make for them if they do not want to undergo a delivery procedure.
Late-term abortion is legal with no restrictions in Canada, and we don't get women just aborting left-and-right just because they can, like opponents of "partial birth abortion" (what a stupid term) seemed to think they did when the ban was passed in the U.S.. Did you guys know that that form of abortion accounts for less than a percent of all abortions, and is normally performed when there is something irreparably wrong with the fetus, such as it already being dead? It's also the safest way of extracting the fetus in such a situation, as it causes the least scarring and bleeding for a procedure which has to be done anyway.
As a final point, I'm incredibly wary of opinions along the lines of "just have the baby and give it up for adoption!" as if it's as simple as saying the sentence is. While opponents of abortion are willing to make anything up to directly oppose the APA in saying things about how abortion harms women psychologically, is anybody willing to put their foot forward and find out what birthmothers go through? Here's a hint, if you've watched the movie Juno, don't think that every pregnancy in the world ends up like that one. Proponents of "adoption not abortion" typically seem to view pregnancy as a passive act that barely affects the woman, and I could go on into how this viewpoint is completely wrong, but a person who is far more educated than I am has written an extensive and enlightening essay about this very topic here.
As a side-note to the adoption issue, I'm firmly against the idea that women should have to have their children as if they owe something to people who can't have children. Apparently, there are so many loving infertile couples who would love to have your baby, but not any of the hundreds of thousands of kids who are already looking for parents!
I'm sure there's more stuff that I'm forgetting to mention, but if you've read up to this point you're probably tired of reading it anyway.
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Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:25 pm
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Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:28 am
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pidgezero_one I recently gathered my thoughts and solidified what is essentially my entire stance on abortion in a post that I made on another forum, and I feel like sharing it here. It's really long, so I'm reducing the font size so as to not stretch the page. Quote: Abortion is probably the issue I feel the most strongly about out of everything I enjoy debating, so I could in theory prattle on about this for hours, but I tend to get a bit out of hand and will try to keep it short.
I am completely and thoroughly pro-choice, in all situations. All situations. Here is my justification.
From a compassionate standpoint: I honestly couldn't give a rat's rear end about how the woman got pregnant. I don't care if she used protection or not. I don't care if she was married. I don't care if it was a one-night's stand. I don't care if she was a hooker. I don't care if she was a loose teenager. I don't care if she was a deadbeat crack addict for goodness' sakes. I don't care if she was raped (except to the extent that I care for her well-being). The day I try to make illogical exceptions to a blanket statement is the day I ignore that every woman's situation is a unique one, and I don't think highly enough of myself to assume that I'm in any place to judge every woman who has ever been pregnant or considered abortion.
Abortion should only be a question of whether or not a fetus intrinsically has a right to live at the expense of its mother, and that question should not consider how the fetus came into existence. One fetus doesn't deserve life more than any other just because of how its mother's sex life is going. I can't stand "only if she was raped!" pro-lifers, sorry if this applies to anybody here. On the same coin, I shake my head every time somebody brings up the pregnant woman's age, especially if "she should be forced to have the baby if she's just a stupid teenager!", because it's an unrealistic stance based on an arbitrary measurement... not to mention it blatantly ignores how teenage pregnancy is, more often than not, a result of the woman being in an abusive relationship.
If a woman wants to get an abortion, carry to term and raise the child, or give their child to somebody else after it's born, I'll completely support her any which way so long as the choice is hers, and not a choice she doesn't want but has been pressured or forced into.
From a religious standpoint: Although embryology is not my strongest science, I know enough about it that if souls do exist, I'm about 99% confident that an embryo does not have one at conception. Two weeks following conception, the zygote splits up into 16 totipotent cells (meaning, each cell is capable of becoming a separate being). Sometimes, these 16 cells do split off into being different beings. Some are sometimes miscarried, other sometimes develop, meaning the woman is pregnant with 2 of more children. If the soul entered the body at conception, do these children each have a fraction of a soul? If not, where did the other souls come from, if they did not enter at conception? How do you decide which child gets the soul that apparently entered at conception? It's not a question I've ever gotten an answer to, and if anybody has an answer to it I would very much like to hear it.
From a comparative standpoint: I cannot view abortion as tantamount to infanticide for the same reason that I cannot view myself as eligible for senior's discounts on bus tickets. Early childhood stages and fetal stages are separate and very different points of development and need to be viewed objectively, rather than viewed in terms of what they would be in the future under a set of assumed conditions.
From a legal standpoint: For reasons listed above, making abortions unavailable with circumstantial exceptions just doesn't make a lick of sense. It's not enforceable, and it's not realistic, and it's passing judgment where it doesn't need to be passed. It's an invasion of privacy for a question that can't even be answered with confidence anywhere even close to perfect.
As it stands, no person has any right to any part of my body that I do not wish for them to be using, regardless if the only way to stop that person is for them to die. This is incredibly important to abortion because there is literally no way to keep a fetus alive when it is removed from the parent. If there was a way, then perhaps I'd lean more toward an alternative that could retain the mother's right to bodily domain and keep the fetus alive where killing it would be rendered unnecessary.
In addition, I do not buy into the idea that the mother is responsible to carry the fetus to term because it's her "fault" (and I use that word very, very loosely) that it exists in the first place. On the same coin, I'm not under legal obligation to donate matching organs or blood or bone marrow to a child of mine who might have inherited a disease from any of my recessive genes, despite it being my fault that the child exists and needs such a donation to begin with. I probably would go through with it anyway, but the fact that I'm not obligated is an important implication to every single person's right to domain over their own body -- it's yours, you get to decide who uses it and who doesn't use it, and a fetus does not have special rights, even if it WAS considered a person.
Keep in mind that all of the above applies even if the person in need will die without your contribution. This opens to door to letting people educate themselves on the issue of murder vs. other types of homicide.
I suppose some might like to counter this with "just don't have sex!", but in the real world, people are going to have sex. People having sex is as much a guarantee as eventual death, the speed of light, and paying taxes, and that's just the way it is. Trying to punish them for it because they don't want an outcome which has always been optional by random chance in the first place (even before birth control, you were never guaranteed to get pregnant by having sex) is stupid, there's no other way to put it. Sex is important to people, especially to those in long-term adult relationships. Let's be real here, it's not like women take birth control pills "in case I get raped".
I support late-term abortion, because I know that most women wouldn't get an abortion that late into the pregnancy anyway unless there was a severe problem with the pregnancy itself. Even if some women would, I firmly believe that abortion is an issue where a few that I guess some would call "bad apples", who are unrelated to the rest of the candidates, shouldn't have to ruin it for the whole bunch.
The woman should be made aware of when it is ultimately safer for her to deliver the baby (whether by induced labour, caesarian, etc) instead of abort it, which actually is often the case with late-term abortion. I believe that women should decide to carry to term when this is the case, as it would be avoiding unnecessary killing as well as ensuring that the woman's body doesn't arbitrarily stop belonging to her, but it's not my call to make for them if they do not want to undergo a delivery procedure.
Late-term abortion is legal with no restrictions in Canada, and we don't get women just aborting left-and-right just because they can, like opponents of "partial birth abortion" (what a stupid term) seemed to think they did when the ban was passed in the U.S.. Did you guys know that that form of abortion accounts for less than a percent of all abortions, and is normally performed when there is something irreparably wrong with the fetus, such as it already being dead? It's also the safest way of extracting the fetus in such a situation, as it causes the least scarring and bleeding for a procedure which has to be done anyway.
As a final point, I'm incredibly wary of opinions along the lines of "just have the baby and give it up for adoption!" as if it's as simple as saying the sentence is. While opponents of abortion are willing to make anything up to directly oppose the APA in saying things about how abortion harms women psychologically, is anybody willing to put their foot forward and find out what birthmothers go through? Here's a hint, if you've watched the movie Juno, don't think that every pregnancy in the world ends up like that one. Proponents of "adoption not abortion" typically seem to view pregnancy as a passive act that barely affects the woman, and I could go on into how this viewpoint is completely wrong, but a person who is far more educated than I am has written an extensive and enlightening essay about this very topic here.
As a side-note to the adoption issue, I'm firmly against the idea that women should have to have their children as if they owe something to people who can't have children. Apparently, there are so many loving infertile couples who would love to have your baby, but not any of the hundreds of thousands of kids who are already looking for parents!
I'm sure there's more stuff that I'm forgetting to mention, but if you've read up to this point you're probably tired of reading it anyway.
*claps* that was beautiful. Thank you, you are amazing. |
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Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 10:51 am
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