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maenad nuri
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:00 pm
I saw this on NFP, and asked for permission to repost. Credit belongs to Brock, who is HP of Tangled Moon Coven, in Clarksville, Tennessee.

Quote:

Being an elder sucks. If you’re good at it, it takes a fair amount of time and effort, and in return you get damn all in terms of tangible rewards. If, on the other hand, you’re a bad elder, there can be all kinds of tasty benefits, but then there’s that inconvenient bit about having to be accountable to the Gods. Hmmm… …decisions, decisions.

There’s a dangerous ego trap involved in being an elder. All these people keep showing up, telling you how knowledgeable you are, how wise you are, how wonderful you are, how sexy and attractive you are. (Okay, that bunch of you over there in the corner, yes I mean you, you can just STOP laughing right now. I mean it.) It can be really tempting to start believing that you actually ARE as wonderful as all these people keep saying you are. Beware, though, because once you actually start to believe that all this shite you’re being handed is true, the next step beyond that is believing that this makes you better and more deserving than the average joe. So it’s okay to be rude to people, and condescending; it’s okay to insist on special treatment. There isn’t anything that you do that’s really out of line, after all, and it’s just so wrong for those annoying whiners over there to be saying that you ought to be judged by the same standards used for ordinary mortals.

Gee, you don’t know anyone who sounds like that, do you?

There are traps that run the other way, too. People will try to stick you up on a pedestal and grovel at your feet. Problem is, they’ll then get really irate when the real you turns out not to match the idealized image of you they have created in their heads. And sooner or later it WILL happen. Here’s a good example:

A coven I know planned to celebrate “Women’s Mysteries” over a long weekend. The female members of the coven gathered at the High Priestess’ home, planning a “girls’ night out” on Saturday, workshops and ritual on Sunday, with Monday for summing up and recovering from the festivities. By a happy circumstance, the event was graced by the presence of the High Priestess who had trained and elevated the coven’s present High Priestess, and who liked to occasionally cast a maternal eye over what her downline had gotten themselves into.
On Saturday evening, the designated drivers ferried the ladies to a local nightspot, where everyone, including the elder High Priestess, proceeded to have a good time. The coveners were aghast. “Did you SEE her? She was DRINKING! And DANCING! It’s UNDIGNIFIED! Why, you’d think she was just like one of us!”


Fortunately, this particular coven’s parent tradition has a custom that requires that the High Priest and High Priestess of every coven must maintain a large cluebat of sturdy construction among the coven’s ritual regalia. I am reliably informed that the cluebat saw extensive use on Sunday and Monday.


So, I ask you: why on earth would any sane person ever WANT to be an elder?


The answer is simple enough: people who want to be elders are almost certainly precisely the wrong people for the job. Most elders fight like grim death to keep people from treating them like elders. Kicking. Screaming. Some of them have a rather nasty bite, too. They’ve got things to be doing that are far more important than letting themselves be propped up on that elder’s pedestal.
So what is it that they do that so all-fired important?

They give stuff away. Really valuable stuff. For free. How stupid is that?

What makes elders valuable, what makes elders important, is their wealth of knowledge and experience. And knowledge and experience are the only forms of wealth I know of that can be given away to others without being diminished. Elders teach. They advise and counsel. They cash people’s reality checks: “You know, George, that really wasn’t quite the smartest thing you could have done, now, was it?” They will point out that the Emperor is in fact parading down the street stark nekkid, and like as not they’ll already have a blanket handy to throw over things so the sight won’t upset the livestock, because they remember what it was like the last time something like this happened.

They’re kind of uncomfortable people to be around, because they because they do inconvenient things like setting an example for people, like it wasn't any big deal to live their entire life, both the mundane part as well as the esoteric side, with integrity and honor. And elders will tell you what you need to hear, even if you don’t want to hear it. One of the more horrible events in my life was when one of my elders looked at me, sitting there, fat, dumb, and happy, and said “I think it’s long past time you were initiated at Third Degree: you’ve been doing Third-level work for months. What do you think about Mabon as the date for the Ritual?”

I’ve had people accuse me of being an elder. The last time it happened I hit the person over the head with a brick, screamed “RAPE! FIRE! MURDER! MARTIANS! TELEMARKETERS!” at the top of my lungs, then made my escape in the confusion. Please, don’t tell them I’m hiding out here. I just know they’re still looking for me…
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:28 pm
Great post. The only thing that could sum it up as well is that ol' Groucho quote- "I wouldn't want to belong to a club that would have me as a member..." or some such bastardization there of.  

TeaDidikai


Pelta

PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:06 am
TeaDidikai
Great post. The only thing that could sum it up as well is that ol' Groucho quote- "I wouldn't want to belong to a club that would have me as a member..." or some such bastardization there of.
And I've always thought Elders should have some sort of tangible reward for what they're giving away.  
PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:31 am
Pelta
TeaDidikai
Great post. The only thing that could sum it up as well is that ol' Groucho quote- "I wouldn't want to belong to a club that would have me as a member..." or some such bastardization there of.
And I've always thought Elders should have some sort of tangible reward for what they're giving away.
The scene isn't designed to support this.

Case in point- Wicca is a theology made up completely of clergy. Now, if the scene itself had to support the Wiccan population? Lucky for us Gardner basically said that they wouldn't have to.

And we're not even going to get into the pain in the arse it is to not be Wiccan and to demand payment for effort rendered from the neo-pagan scene.

"You can't accept money for driving one hundred miles to do work! That makes you a black witch!" rolleyes

I keep trying to understand why needing gas money and food changes the pigment of my skin and how it makes me a witch at all.  

TeaDidikai


Pelta

PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 3:27 pm
TeaDidikai
Now, if the scene itself had to support the Wiccan population?
I was assuming only Wiccans would have to support their clergy (ie. each other or whoever's teaching them). I don't give money to the Catholic church, why would I give money to the Wiccans? They can squabble about money amongst themselves.

Quote:
"You can't accept money for driving one hundred miles to do work! That makes you a black witch!" rolleyes
Can you believe I get this kind of treatment for giving music lessons? You know they're bitter when they complain that E30 an hour is expensive. rolleyes

People just don't know the value of anything any more. Like that Oscar Wilde quote...

"A critic is one who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing."  
PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:27 pm
Pelta
I was assuming only Wiccans would have to support their clergy (ie. each other or whoever's teaching them). I don't give money to the Catholic church, why would I give money to the Wiccans? They can squabble about money amongst themselves.
However, Wiccans are clergy to the generic neo-pagan population, thus the generic neo-pagan population would be the ones supporting them. Deo, Wing and I wouldn't, as our paths fall outside of their sphere.

Quote:
Can you believe I get this kind of treatment for giving music lessons? You know they're bitter when they complain that E30 an hour is expensive. rolleyes

People just don't know the value of anything any more. Like that Oscar Wilde quote...

"A critic is one who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing."
This is in part, to Wicca's blame. The 161 Laws outlined a prohibition against charging (for a stupid reason no less- in my humble opinion)  

TeaDidikai


Pelta

PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:52 am
TeaDidikai
Pelta
I was assuming only Wiccans would have to support their clergy (ie. each other or whoever's teaching them). I don't give money to the Catholic church, why would I give money to the Wiccans? They can squabble about money amongst themselves.
However, Wiccans are clergy to the generic neo-pagan population, thus the generic neo-pagan population would be the ones supporting them. Deo, Wing and I wouldn't, as our paths fall outside of their sphere.
What? You mean they appointed themselves the pagan population's priests without telling us? Bloody self-righteous Wiccans.*

I didn't know you could be a priest to people who were completely oblivous of your existance... confused

I hope that doesn't include me. Just because I'll dance naked on the solstices doesn't mean I owe anybody my allegiance.

*No offense intended.  
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:28 am
Thanks for that Nuri. That was a great read. Pass my thanks on to the originator as well, if you would be so kind.  

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:51 pm
That was really great. ^-^ Exactaly what I would do if any one ever called me an elder.......I never want the job, people expect way to much from you.  
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:25 pm
In the LDS church, people as youung as 19 get labelled Elders... it's actually an expectation for Missionary work.

As far as I'm concerned... if someone calls me Elder, it's just because my gray was showing... or I was being more cumurdgeonly than usual... and they meant Elderly. xd

I can teach nothing, I can only offer to help people learn for themselves.  

Fiddlers Green


Astenwroth

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:42 pm
Fiddlers Green
In the LDS church, people as youung as 19 get labelled Elders... it's actually an expectation for Missionary work.
Once your off your Mission you no longer use that title of respect till I believe you join the Quorum of the Seventy.  
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:09 pm
Pelta
TeaDidikai
Pelta
I was assuming only Wiccans would have to support their clergy (ie. each other or whoever's teaching them). I don't give money to the Catholic church, why would I give money to the Wiccans? They can squabble about money amongst themselves.
However, Wiccans are clergy to the generic neo-pagan population, thus the generic neo-pagan population would be the ones supporting them. Deo, Wing and I wouldn't, as our paths fall outside of their sphere.
What? You mean they appointed themselves the pagan population's priests without telling us? Bloody self-righteous Wiccans.*

I didn't know you could be a priest to people who were completely oblivous of your existance... confused

I hope that doesn't include me. Just because I'll dance naked on the solstices doesn't mean I owe anybody my allegiance.

*No offense intended.
I wish me to cite Gardner's pieces on the subject?

He pretty much claimed that modern Wiccan influenced neo-pagans hold the Wiccans as clergy. Quite amusing really.  

TeaDidikai


Pelta

PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:35 am
TeaDidikai
I wish me to cite Gardner's pieces on the subject?
No thanks... I believe you. I just find it ridiculous, and somewhat insulting. confused

Part of the point of being what I am is that I am my own clergy.  
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 8:20 am
Pelta
TeaDidikai
I wish me to cite Gardner's pieces on the subject?
No thanks... I believe you. I just find it ridiculous, and somewhat insulting. confused

Part of the point of being what I am is that I am my own clergy.
But even clergy have clergy. ~shrugs~  

TeaDidikai


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 12:35 am
TeaDidikai
Pelta
TeaDidikai
I wish me to cite Gardner's pieces on the subject?
No thanks... I believe you. I just find it ridiculous, and somewhat insulting. confused

Part of the point of being what I am is that I am my own clergy.
But even clergy have clergy. ~shrugs~


Hmm... I was going to make a sarcastic remark about who clergies the clergy's clergy, but something else popped up in my head.

Has anyone ever heard/seen/been made ware of a religious sect/group/what have ye where there is a semi-circular clergy so to speak?

Example: The Holy House of Pancakes (Not to be confused with iHop) devides it's clergy of (shall we say) 30 members into 3 groups of ten.

They're good at division you see.

In any event, the first group (in addition to it's other duties) tends to the spirtual needs of the second group. The second group tends to teh spirtual needs of the third, and the third tends to the first.

Just an idea I thought of.  
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