Magic, Team Work, and Mental Jump ropes in a knot

[TeaDidikai]

So- I tend to avoid meaningful group ritual like the plague, mostly because the majority of open circles around here I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, because I don't want my peanut butter getting mixed in with their marshmellows.

That is to say- I don't want my workings tangled with one or more of those folks at the ritual for different reasons.

However when I do work for someone else, or with someone else- I have to wonder how the dynamic between the two people in question combine.

For example, my path doesn't call for me to address my workings like a Lawyer unless I am working with an "Infernal".

Others always address their workings like they are fresh out of Harvard Law.

When two such people get together- what has experience shown others to be the default of the work itself?  

[Molly Mollusca]

I've read this post 3 times and still don''t get what you are saying/asking.

Lawyer, infernal??? question

I do however get what you are saying about not wanting to attend open circles. But that stems from experiance. The ones I have attended were to floaty and too eclectic for my like. I don;t particulairly like mixing pantheons and doing something meaningless like throwing some petals in a stream to please Freya. And I don;t really care for the new-agy fluf womans decorated with chrystals who are drawn to these meetings like it were made of honey.  

[Aesi]

By "addressing workings like a lawyer", do you mean making sure that every itty-bitty detail is in order and hopefully harmonious? Such as... done on the perfect day, under the proper weather, under the proper astrological event, with the perfect tools, with the ideal background sounds, with the perfect incense, attending to the properly corresponding god(s) (even if you have no relationship with the one(s) being called on), and so forth?  

[TeaDidikai]

Aesi

By "addressing workings like a lawyer", do you mean making sure that every itty-bitty detail is in order and hopefully harmonious? Such as... done on the perfect day, under the proper weather, under the proper astrological event, with the perfect tools, with the ideal background sounds, with the perfect incense, attending to the properly corresponding god(s) (even if you have no relationship with the one(s) being called on), and so forth?

I tend to think of it more as a function of wording intention.

I have seen incantations ten to twenty pages long decribing what I would sum up in a single sentence  

[Aesi]

TeaDidikai

I tend to think of it more as a function of wording intention.

I have seen incantations ten to twenty pages long decribing what I would sum up in a single sentence

Ah, the "I'm not doing magic, I'm trying to write an unabusable djinn wish" kind of thing. Even as a ceremonial student, that bugs me. The person doing the working should have a clear vision of what they're trying to accomplish, but then they don't need all the epic liturgy. However, I can see it might be valued by those whose imaginations aren't so strong. Raw beginners and people who haven't had a decent training in meditation may find detailed liturgy very helpful in getting a grasp on their intent. Liturgy should only be used as a place to begin, I think. It's best used as a way to become familiar with the finer points of ritual or spellwork. As a person gains knowledge of themselves, understanding of magic's limits and potential, and a better familiarity with their god(s), they should be able to focus on their intent without making enormous speeches about it. Unless a god or tradition stands on the utmost formality and grand drama, I fail to see why long incantations should be adhered to for entire length of one's lifetime practice.

As far as how well the twain do meet, I have little experience or observation to draw on. What I have seen hasn't gone well, though. I was briefly a student in an eclectic coven that had ceremonialists, naturalists, animists, one magician who worked entirely on mental planes (never did hear whether or not it worked for him), shamans, etc., etc., etc. It was a comfortable group for a while, then people started arguing over how holiday rituals should be done. Having a broad mix of paths and little wisdom forced a superficial approach to holiday gatherings and people started arguing that their way of doing things was being ignored in favor of someone else's. We females of the coven thought it'd be a bright idea to make an "energy jar" to protect the peace and solidarity of the group. This work was really just us pouring protective thoughts into a porcelain urn and sealing it with cork and wax. I was asked to leave shortly after due to something I'd stolen from a coven member and her husband. What I'd done was terrible, and I wish I could make some reparation (over the last five years, I've lost contact with everyone who was in the coven and this particular couple has left the state), but being dismissed for it may have saved me from bitterness over the group's difficult breakup soon after. As it is, I've yet to weed out some problems in my training that came from that coven. Even my small role in it led to aggravation of a nervous condition I've had since being on Ritalin for eight years as a child. I can't even identify some of the problems that are rooted in that time, so I've stopped even most lesser workings until I'm confident that I've got the basics in order. I started the LBRP after much hesitation, but I won't do more than that until I've discussed my situation and concerns with someone who has much greater qualifications in both magic and psychology.

I've seen little of opposites trying to work together in ritual, but the view from that small perspective strikes me as a good example of bad combinations.  

[Fiddlers Green]

TeaDidikai

I have seen incantations ten to twenty pages long decribing what I would sum up in a single sentence

Amatuers. stare

Anything of any consequence would likely take me about 50 pages of meat, one Lexicon, one Glossary, and about an extra 10 pages of illustrations to propperly describe... and this assumes an already working knowledge of the basics of the particular dweomer being prepared.

My most recent project was the better part of 80 pages.

The purpose of this lengthy discourse is to ensure nothing goes wrong.

We don't (genrally) invoke externall intellegences, and what we do is more akin to applied physics adn chemistry than anything else.
And like these hard sciences (as opposed to soft sciences like sociology), requires very precise instruction and the utmost care.
One must carefully regulate a nuclear reaction, and we place the same care in our own formulae.  

[Pelta]

Fiddlers Green

TeaDidikai

I have seen incantations ten to twenty pages long decribing what I would sum up in a single sentence

Amatuers. stare

But why use words at all...? ninja

I dont mess with other peoples spellwork for a few reasons. One, the way I practise is so vastly different from most pagans I know that the two styles would just not blend. It would be almost impossible to coordinate anything. Two, any of the people who could understand what Im doing would know exactly what Im doing too quickly for me to follow and could probably do it better. This leaves me in the situation somewhat like most people are just not good enough and everyone else is better. *end egoism*

Plus working with people makes bonds that can sometimes just get... messy.  

[Fiddlers Green]

Because words are diagrams for concepts. ninja

Also, just to make sure everyone is on the same sheet of music so to speak...
Of note, I always adapt to whatever group I'm participating with... my techniques do not play well with other styles. And I'm not allowed to lead the un-initiated in the style of dweomer I know.  

[Doctrix]

I presume that I know EXACTLY what you mean! Open circles can be chaos because people are each doing their own thing together. That's why I prefer to work with people who are all of the same tradition. That way, no matter what is going on in our heads, the mechanism of our magic is the same. The external matters have been standardized, so there's no guesswork.

My HPS is like a lawyer. She has to hem and haw and think it all out into seemingly infinate permituations of results. My HP is on the other end of the spectrum with a sort of "eh, they know what I mean" mentality, figuring that it will all work itself out on its own. But when they get together through the same tradition and use the same standard magical system, it works out every time! Sometimes they do disagree as to what angle to attack a problem, but once that is decided, the actual act of magic is a given.  

[CuAnnan]

missmagpie

But why use words at all...? ninja

You've seen my tattoo, right? 12 words, each comprising of two to five lines. Simple, short, concise and powerful

missmagpie

This leaves me in the situation somewhat like most people are just not good enough and everyone else is better. *end egoism*

LOL

missmagpie

Plus working with people makes bonds that can sometimes just get... messy.

Am I the only person who likes those bonds?  

[TeaDidikai]

reagun ban

missmagpie

Plus working with people makes bonds that can sometimes just get... messy.

Am I the only person who likes those bonds?

Depends on who the bonds are with. ninja  

[CuAnnan]

TeaDidikai

reagun ban

missmagpie

Plus working with people makes bonds that can sometimes just get... messy.

Am I the only person who likes those bonds?

Depends on who the bonds are with. ninja

Well, in specific I was referring to my little sister and a good friend.  

[TeaDidikai]

reagun ban

TeaDidikai

reagun ban

missmagpie

Plus working with people makes bonds that can sometimes just get... messy.

Am I the only person who likes those bonds?

Depends on who the bonds are with. ninja

Well, in specific I was referring to my little sister and a good friend.

Not what I had in mind, but a valid example none the less.

Picture if you will for the sake of argument- said good friend and sister having a devastating fight- and the energetic result there of and the reaction present in any working done together.

Truth be told, the number of people I have worked with without a second thought I can count on a single hand.  

[Henry Dorsett Case]

TeaDidikai

Picture if you will for the sake of argument- said good friend and sister having a devastating fight- and the energetic result there of and the reaction present in any working done together.

ACK THPBBT! I can't think of too many things that wouldn't be disrupted in some way by enmity coming into the working...there may be things, but I can't think of 'em!  

[TeaDidikai]

Henry Dorsett Case

TeaDidikai

Picture if you will for the sake of argument- said good friend and sister having a devastating fight- and the energetic result there of and the reaction present in any working done together.

ACK THPBBT! I can't think of too many things that wouldn't be disrupted in some way by enmity coming into the working...there may be things, but I can't think of 'em!

Maybe I just don't play well with others. gonk

Maybe most of the people I spend time with are pegans and thus don't know how to finish a piece. Couldn't say.

I can say however, that I only work with people I would trust with my personal wellbeing. Which is a rather small number.