Which God's rules apply?

[PhantomPhoenix0]

I was considering making this topic in M&R, but I thought that I would start the topic here, so I can get some support for debate, along with feedback. Anyway, here we go:

Lets just assume for a second that (hypotheticly) it has been proven that YHVH is not the only God out there, and that his laws only apply to those bound in covenent to him.

In the same way, the laws of someone bound to another God (or multiple Gods for that matter) only apply to those bound to the other God(s).

What happens to someone who is baptized as an infant (thereby becoming a child of YHVH), gets confirmed, but then realizes it is not the path they were supposed to be on, and swear themselves to (an)other God(s). Who's laws apply? YHVH's because he was the first to be bound to the person? Or the other God(s), because the person believes in them completely?  

[Aesi]

I doubt a covenant with a god is as easy to break as just starting to follow another one. I tried it in my foolish youth and found myself unexpectedly desiring to return to YHVH, who then expected me to put up or show myself out of His path.

My guess is that someone who chooses another god over one they've been sworn to will find it difficult to divorce themselves from either set of laws. They will likely be forced into some resolution, whether or not it's what they want or is beneficial to them.  

[TeaDidikai]

One cannot be bound by oath if they are unable to give reasoned consent. Which makes me wonder how old said individual is at their confirmation?  

[Oniko-inuki]

I can understand your concerns, being in a similar situation myself. I was young and wanted to please my parents and grandparents and went through my confirmation to Catholicism. This has been something that's been bothering me for quite sometime as well.

Turning to a pagan faith for me was difficult and I was often wracked with doubt over my descision. I try to find some balance between a vow made in ignorance and gods I hold dear. One thing it has done is made me very leery of hasty vows.

I think, though I am not sure should probably speak to a priest on the matter, is that remaining in YHVH's grace requires more then just a vow made at confirmation. So that even after confirmation one can turn away from the church, vow would be broken. I don't know whether or not that would free you up to follow another god though, as some have rather strong opinions on oathbreakers.

Tea>> is it really that simple as someone not being old enough? What is old enough? And isn't an oath an oath regardless?  

[TeaDidikai]

Oniko-inuki

Tea>> is it really that simple as someone not being old enough? What is old enough? And isn't an oath an oath regardless?

I'm taking into account that Phantom is interested in Asatru.

Something one must consider is which gods are in question.

As Frigga herself acknowledged that some beings are "too young"* to understand the weight of an oath- it is something worth considering.

(A la the Mistletoe that brought Baulder low)  

[Pelta]

One can also always be excommunicated. Write to your local bishop and ask. They'll probably ask you if you're really sure you want to go to hell but I think if you really want they'll excommunicate you. I know a couple people here who managed it. But you'll have to ask one of them for more details.

*was never baptised* whee  

[Molly Mollusca]

I was wondering myself that too. In The Netherlands we have a converted witch. She says she was in a coven and that she was doing seriously magic. (She was not, she was only in a studygroup. ) Then she went to New-Zealand and went to a church to covert. When she was "cleased" by baptision, she said she saw the Goddess in her not so nice form. (picture any death Goddess) and her blood begain to boil.

"Ah, this is proof that the Goddess is a demon!" She wrote in a book and said on evangelical TV. Forgot to mention that she had made a bloodpact with the Goddess in her witchy years. She had done the self-dedication mentioned in Bucklands book. "May my blood boil, when I break this oath..."
And that she forgot that the Goddess is more then just a lovely spring goddes with a sweet temper. rolleyes

Anyway, it made me wonder... I guess you should be carefull about with what you promise, to any God... ?  

[Pelta]

Elfin Brill

Anyway, it made me wonder... I guess you should be carefull about with what you promise, to any God... ?

Promises are dangerous things to make to any being, let alone a vengeful god. Oaths carry a lot of weight.  

[PhantomPhoenix0]

Well, thanks for the responses. Let me just say that while this topic does hold true for me, I wasn't writing it as a "this is the situation I'm in. Do I go to Hel or Hell?" topic. I wanted to keep it open for discussion, so that there can be a good debate on both sides.

Anyway, Tea. I was confirmed in the 8th grade (so about 14), but I didnt really have a choice in the matter. My parents just said that I had confirmation classes, and within 10 minutes I was sitting there at church.

magpie, I was confirmed Lutheran, so bishops and excommunication dont really exist to my knowledge (at least in the Lutheran sense).  

[Pelta]

PhantomPhoenix0

magpie, I was confirmed Lutheran, so bishops and excommunication dont really exist to my knowledge (at least in the Lutheran sense).

Oh. Erm... Talk to your priest? I don't know much about the Lutheran sect. People are mostly Catholic here. There must be some way of getting it done, though. neutral  

[Doctrix]

I agree with the idea that you were probably too young to know what you were doing. I don't know much at all about baptism or confirmation. It is my personal belief that, if somebody knowingly makes an oath to a deity and then knowinly breaks that oath, there will be consequences. But that doesn't mean that breaking the oath can't be done. Simply that there are consequences. Since I don't know much about baptism, confirmation or Christianity in general, I'm not sure what manner of consequences were or were not laid out at the time.  

[Sevendreams]

PhantomPhoenix0

Anyway, Tea. I was confirmed in the 8th grade (so about 14), but I didnt really have a choice in the matter. My parents just said that I had confirmation classes, and within 10 minutes I was sitting there at church.

magpie, I was confirmed Lutheran, so bishops and excommunication dont really exist to my knowledge (at least in the Lutheran sense).

Bahaha, same thing happened to me. I was also baptized Lutheran (Missouri Synod) and, reluctantly, went through confirmation. I'd say the best thing I got out of it was a girlfriend, although even that didn't turn out so great.

I think the Lutheran method of baptizing babies was meant to be a statement by the parents, i.e., the parents are declaring before the pastor and congretation their intention to raise their child in the Lutheran way. Infants only know comfort and discomfort, not the complexities involving a covenant with a deity. If, from that point, the parents decide never to involve their child with the church or Lutheran way, then nothing has changed for the child, and it just proves that baby baptism is really meaningless.

Confirmation requires a fair bit of memorization and some thinking. While still too naive in the mid-teens, I was able to understand the basics of what was taught, between the lord's prayer, the two creeds, the ten commandments and holy communion. I didn't fully understand the reasoning for bizarre concepts involved, such as "eating" Jesus on a bi-weekly basis, portions of the lord's prayer (I still am bashful when "thine kingdom come" is said) and why we need to believe in an Apostolic church when we were a Lutheran church. But I was too thick-headed and was constantly being advised by my family not to question anything or I was sinning.

Children are highly impressionable, and if you manipulate something into a child's head well enough, it sticks with them for life, no matter how much they do not want it. Does such a way of learning constitute a covenant? I don't think so, unless you stretch predestination around it, but then that gives rise to reasoning that proselytization is an extension of predestination, and then things get nasty. However, though this logic suggests a covenant requiring a choice, can years of family and church influence simply be forgotten? That, I think, has no general answer, and instead depends upon the ability of the individual to make that thorough a switch. Therefore, the third factor that has to be taken into account with making a switch is influence through upbringing. Much as you may not want to admit, your values are based on the values of the people you grew up around, even if yours are based around opposing theirs. The question might be adjusted to "can you break from your upbringing?"

Another thought might be, you were born into the U.S. (or wherever), and although it was not your choice, you are bound to follow the laws of the country so long as you remain there. If you leave the country at an adult age, you will forever have the influence of your birth country's values, and you will forever compare the values of other countries to that.

Forgive the use of "you," but I am in a time crunch and had to cut corners in order to get this out before I have to head to class. K bye! rofl  

[TeaDidikai]

PhantomPhoenix0

Anyway, Tea. I was confirmed in the 8th grade (so about 14), but I didnt really have a choice in the matter. My parents just said that I had confirmation classes, and within 10 minutes I was sitting there at church.

Somehow I missed this.

An oath taken against free will or without understanding isn't one that I consider one must keep- especially if there is no ability to understand it to begin with.  

[Sevendreams]

TeaDidikai

PhantomPhoenix0

Anyway, Tea. I was confirmed in the 8th grade (so about 14), but I didnt really have a choice in the matter. My parents just said that I had confirmation classes, and within 10 minutes I was sitting there at church.

Somehow I missed this.

An oath taken against free will or without understanding isn't one that I consider one must keep- especially if there is no ability to understand it to begin with.

...I wish I could be that succinct. redface  

[TeaDidikai]

Sevendreams

TeaDidikai

PhantomPhoenix0

Anyway, Tea. I was confirmed in the 8th grade (so about 14), but I didnt really have a choice in the matter. My parents just said that I had confirmation classes, and within 10 minutes I was sitting there at church.

Somehow I missed this.

An oath taken against free will or without understanding isn't one that I consider one must keep- especially if there is no ability to understand it to begin with.

...I wish I could be that succinct. redface

Heh. It takes practice. sweatdrop