Preps vs Goth! The showdown.

[Ndoki]

Okay so I'm sure this is going to turn out to be a very long writing, try to bear with me. There's nothing I hate more than people saying "I never read it but I think you're wrong because..."

So, I have decided, I'm gonna put everything on the line, and spill everything I have come to learn about a few subjects.. namely...

*Ahem.*

Posers and why goths and preps don't get along.

First of all we need to look at what those mean. Ignoring historical tribes and such, a goth can be summed up as someone who is a free-thinker, who chooses to break away from the crowd and do what they want. Because of this many are stereotyped as 'outcasts' or 'freaks', but freaks all throughout history were merely people who were different. Now on the other hand, preps, what are they? Preps can be a few things, but really boiled down they usually have one thing in common, they follow the crowd, they are the ones that want to be popular and like everyone else. There are many other characteristics they exhibit, but that would be the most common by far.

Now looking at those two definitions it's pretty simple why there is so much animosity between the two groups. Preps want to be like everyone, and they want everyone to be like them. Goths on the other hand want to break free of the fads and pop culture, so preps look at goths as people too 'freakish' to be part of the group, and goths look at preps like clones following each other. Now it's obvious that there would be friction between the two, and it's pretty natural too.

Now many of the time people are defined by what they wear, this is both caused by shallow people, cultural stereotypes, and wannabes. Now what is a wannabe? Well first we have to look at the stereotypes. They say that preps have to wear lots of pink, and the new fasions, they have to be giggly blondes with tons of makeup. On the other hand goths have to listen to bands like Korn, Slipknot, Linkin Park, Papa Roach, bahaus, etc. They all have to wear lots of black and love the color red and deep purples with their black. They have to wear lots of makeup (more than preps sometimes!) and dye their hair black. Chains, spikes, and fishnets are also very common. Ironically enough if you refer to the above definitions goth is about breaking out of sterotypes and being unique right? That's where wannabes come in. Wannabes (or as I usually refer to them, skin goths.) are the ones who want to fit in to the goth crowd for all the wrong reasons. They are the people that buy the same clothes, dress the same way, and wear the same makeup as all the other goths, without realising that doing that is actually more preppy than goth. Because of that though wannabes perpetuate all the stereotypes, and sometimes make them even worse.

Another stereotype is that all goths hate anything that's mainstream. This is both right and wrong in some ways. There is no written rule that goths have to instantly reject anything mainstream, but it's a general case that since it goes along with following the crowd mainstream things are generally avoided, or just need to be that much better to be accepted by some.

Now the drawback of goths (the personality, not the outfit) is the fact that since it's all about being unique and not how you dress or what you wear it's quite hard to tell who is actually goth, many don't even realise it. Generally those who frequent art galleries, like the fine arts (such as dance and theatre) and who appretiate the finer things in life are goth. Goth has always been about the finer points in everything, in the extravagent and the intelligent, until lately the popular goth image has been twisted to represent someone who listens to "gothic" bands, wears lots of black, chains, spikes, heavy makeup, etc. which causes much of the confusion.

In closing this is everything I have learned about what it means to be goth. I'm not ashamed nor have any doubt in calling myself goth, even though I don't have black hair or wear black. I like to laugh, I rarely wear any makeup, and when I do it's just a quick swipe of the eyeliner. I like to watch live theatre, and I love fine art. I prefer listening to classical and operatic music over slipknot, and I'm not obscessed with death. My name is Ndoki and I AM GOTH!



*Braces self for attacks.*  

[Isobel Bellamy]

Hm, the term 'prep' is something i'm having problems with, mainly because it is a localised term (to America). The metnality and ethos however still applies to group other than 'preps'. I shall give the UK Eqivilent of preps: the Chavs (Hoodies, Neds, Townies, Kevs, Charvers, Steeks, Spides, Bazzas, Yarcos, Ratboys, Skangers, Scutters, Janners, Stigs, Scallies, Hood Rats are other names for them)

They all exibit the same pack mentality though, the same identikit uniform of tacksuits, tees and hooded tops (when told they all look the same they will give blank looks that they're not, sure, the companents of clothing is different but they're still wearing the same things, just different versions). When asked why they all dress similarly its becuase they don't want to be made fun of. Preps, just (in my opinion) with less taste.

I shall refer you to this page for examples.

The rest on your opinion of Goth is very interesting, I shall defend you against people with a more tapered vision of goth, in this day and age goth has evolved from it's roots and I say it's nothing to be afraid of. Goth encompasses far more than just wearing outrageous clothes and listening to songs that could send even the happiest puppies into the deepest darkest pit of depression (Robet Smith, TAKE SOME FREAKING PROZAK!!!)

Very nice topic, very true.  

[Ndoki]

Ha ha, thank you thank you. ^_^ I'm glad someone likes it.  

[GilAskan]

Comparing goth to just about anything is a difficult proposition, largely due to the fact that there is not a single commonly accepted definition for what goth is. "Goth" has come to mean so many different things that whether or not it can even be compared is a problem in itself. While "prep" also can be difficult to nail down, the number of definitions are far fewer.

The two major definitions of "prep" are the following:

- WASP (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant), typically of conservative political backgrounds and are of the upper-middle class. Attend major preparatory schools, hence the name.
- Mainstream slang for trend-followers who attempt to climb the social ladder through the trends (i.e. popular trends of clothes, listening to popular bands) and appearing to be clean-cut or upper class.
- A fashion style (I won't even go on to define it; it's well known enough)...
- A person who wears "prep" fashions

"Goth" can mean many, many different things, and is often disputed within the community:

- Refers to a person who enjoys and regularly listens to goth-rock (ex. Bauhaus, Joy Division, etc.)
- Refers to a person who follows certain "goth" fashion trends (commonly disputed)
- Refers to a person who is independent, free thinking, and creative
- Refers to a person fascinated with murder, suicide, and other morbid subjects (commonly disputed)
- Refers to a person with a goth "state of mind" (commonly disputed)
- Refers to a person who is a combination of any of the above definitions
- A person who listens to black-metal and emo (disregarded as false)
- A person who worships Satan or various pagan, devil worshipping religions (disregarded as false)
- A person who wears goth clothes (disregarded as false)
- A phase that teenagers follow as a way to rebel (disregarded as false)
- Emos who try to kill others instead of killing themselves (disregarded as false)
- Hardcore emos (disregarded as false)
- A person who wears black and white make-up (commonly disputed)
- A person who thinks they are a vampire (disregarded as false)

While no defintion of goth is majoritively accepted, the Voltaire theory is the most commonly agreed upon: "A goth is a person who likes goth rock (an offshoot of punk, which was slower and more melancholy), and usually is very open minded; as sort of a new romanticism, goths like to explore that which is passionate, romantic, and sometimes, that which is dark and morbid".

Now, when comparing the two common defintions (the common defintion of prep, and that of goth), I believe that the two can't really compare. Prep is more of a style, like a subculture, if you will. It has fashion and slang, but no definitive attributes otherwise. Goth is a full culture, comprised of slang, music, art, multiple fashion styles, locales (i.e. clubs, restaurants, etc.), literature, humor, etc.

Comparing prep to goth would be like comparing Seattle to Japan. Seattle is it's own city, yes, but Japan is a full country, comprised of many cities, and more than cities: towns, monuments, parks, forests, mountains, lakes, rivers.

I'll post more about how "posuers" fit into the equation a bit later.  

[Ndoki]

So you believe people are categorized by what they listen to? People's personalities are summed up by the music they listened to? I listen to everything, what does that make me? My definition was (as I'm pretty sure I stated) oversimplified and is based on the actions and personalities of all the real goths I know and since there is no official definition, doesn't it make the most sense to follow the most common trait amongst the group? Maybe I'm just crazy in that regard.

Also I knew tons of preps and none of them attended "Preparatory schools"...
With my article I am cutting deep to the common things that tie the groups together, and what lies beneath the exterior, wheras basing people on fashion and music is pretty shallow and is based off of (what I once again specified in my article) cultural norms and labels... so if you want to go by them then everyone on this board is a satan worshipper who cuts themselves and mope and talk about death all the time and preps are better than everyone else. Is that true?  

[GilAskan]

First, a person can't be defined by the music they listen to, but it can be part of that person's life. Many goths believe that a goth is a person who is an avid fan of goth rock.

Wikipedia.org

The use of goth as an adjective in describing this music and its followers led to the term goth.

[While some argue against it, it can be said that] goth started as a music scene and that Goths were fans of goth rock at the beginning. Want a dictionary definition of goth as a subculture?

Dictionary.com

Goth (n.): 1. A style of rock music that often evokes bleak, lugubrious imagery. 2. A performer or follower of this style of music.

It's not being shallow. It's not being superficial. Most sources with accurate histories of goth, and many goths themselves (including me) believe that the goth culture had its roots in music, and that a defining factor of goths is their attachment to the music of the culture.

Also, I never stated, EVER in my post what I believe. That why I ALWAYS said "can mean" or "common definitions". I was simply stating the problem of comparing the two, in that there is no solid definition for either, and I also listed what people commonly say and think about the two. Look through my last post again. Did I EVER say "I think" or "My opinion is"? No, I didn't.

I, again, was stating the problem with comparing the two. Not stating my opinion on the subject.

My opinion is that preps are drawn to what is most accessable (i.e. the mainstream), while goths have a natural curiosity to understand everything, and then making decisions about what they think is best given what they like the most, whether or not it's easily accessable.

However, I still consider being a fan of goth-rock related genres (goth-rock, deathrock, darkwave, visual kei, etc.) to be a defining factor of goths. I will still advocate that goth , like punk, started in the music scene, and the followers of the scene eventually developed the culture.

As for the list of stereotypes, I don't believe the overwhelming majority. I know that goths aren't worshippers of satan. I know goths aren't hardcore emo-kids. I was just listing what many people think goth is, as to accentuate the difficulty in solidly defining the goth culture.  

[Ndoki]

Well going by actual definitions Wikipedia isn't accurate at all, considering there is no moderating them and it's just compilations of people and there is easily incorrect information presented. Secondly, according to marriam webster, the actual definition of goth only refers to ancient nomadic people and has nothing to do with music at all. Lastly, using dictionaries still further proves my point, since they are based on popular beliefs, which as I have already shown, are generally wrong.

Also, the widely acclaimed article written by Azhram specifically starts off saying:

#1 What is Goth?

Ignoring historical references to European barbarian tribes and, architectural, literal and art styles, Goth is a subculture. It started in the late 1970's both in Europe AND the United States OUTSIDE of the club/music scene. The culture was comprised of INDIVIDUALS with very little in common but their artistic drive, insatiable curiosity, extreme intellectualism, and the socially unacceptable need to be and express themselves.

and later on....

Q: All Goths listen to the same music.
A: Yah. Sure we do. Actually that's not highly likely. Even the skin-Goths have a semi-diverse musical taste. This is one of those ridiculous stereotypes that is glued onto every single culture that exists. It is true of none of them, and is just as untrue for Goths. I won't waste any more breath on this one.

And I have yet to ever meet a true goth that ever disagreed with that article.  

[GilAskan]

I never said that goths listened only to goth rock. I said that goths were fans of it. Goths, in my experience, have far more diverse tastes than most people, it's just that a common uniting factor among many goths is a fondess for certain genres.

As for the accuracy of either article, each has equal likeliness of being true. Wikipedia now requires citations for all information put on, and since last year, they're really been cracking down on innaccuracies. However, it is true that people can post lies without going checked for months (or even years) at a time, given how much information Wikipedia holds. On a similar note, Blood-Dance has as much a chance as being innaccurate. being a blog, they're legally allowed to post whatever they want, so long as it doesn't hurt someone. No one at all moderates what goes on Blood-Dance except the owners themselves, who could, if they chose, post lies.

So either source is equally disputable.

This is why in my first post I mentioned multiple times that goth was hard to define. No matter where it started, it started underground. Even the biggest goth successes have hardly scratched the surface of mainstream popularity, so it's very difficult to pin down what exactly started the culture.

I personally believe that there were goths before goth-rock came together, however, I also believe that goth-rock was what unified the people we now call goths and made the actual scene, despite the fact that the people existed before it; they simply existed as individuals. That why I say that goth-rock started goth culture, not goth.

I'm not saying anyone is wrong, I'm saying it's impossible to be right.

Also, on another note, aren't you being a bit hypocritical? You claim that goths are open minded and that you are a goth, but you shot me down the second I might have disputed you. You say "I have yet to ever meet a true goth that ever disagreed with that article." But what if I fit every single definition you had for goth, and I disagreed with that article.? I do frequent art galleries, I am creative and I enjoy individualism. I have a broad taste in music, I love fine art (an art studet myself), and (relatively to the average person) I'm intelligent. Yet you imply that I'm not a "true" goth because I don't agree with you, because I don't agree on a blog's opinion.

I don't want to sound mean, it's just a bit of a double standard, don't you think?  

[Ndoki]

Quote:

what if I fit every single definition you had for goth, and I disagreed with that article.?

Then you'd be the first. 3nodding I thought that would be obvious. I never said there IS no true goth that would disagree with it, just that out of all the ones I met none of them did. On top of that if someone met every single criteria and perfectly fit the image protrayed in it, they wouldn't have any reason to disagree with it. I don't disagree that I have white skin, because it's true, and if I did disagree with it then that would be ignorant... not to mention that wouldn't be very open minded. wink  

[GilAskan]

How about we just agree to disagree then?

Also, by chance, where are you from? I've found that certain regions have more predominate beliefs than others, meaning your definition of goth could very well be appropriate for your frame of reference, and likewise for myself.

For example, I've talked with goths from certain areas who believe that goth was started as a club scene. Not in music or in personal growth, but as a trend started at night-clubs. Never heard it anywhere but there. I think it was Milwaukee where everybody kept saying that, but I'm not entirely sure...  

[Ndoki]

I have also heard people who call themselves satanists that know nothing about the religion. If you really must know the only thing I'll say is western canada.  

[GilAskan]

That makes more sense then.

It probably is a matter of regional difference then.

Quote:

I have also heard people who call themselves satanists that know nothing about the religion.

Yeah, there are a lot of people who have no idea what they're talking about, no matter what the subject is. Like wiccans who talk about wicca being an "ancient pagan religion" despite that fact that it was created in 1954 by a brit named Gerald Garderner (based on older religions, yes, but a new religion itself).

One of the single negatives I find about being goth is the number of posuers (skin-goths, kindergoths, mallgoths, M&M's, goffs, gawfs, mallcore, spookykids, whatever you want to call them) which bring negative attention to the culture. Which typically leads to people saying things such as "Oh, ________ is going through a goth phase. _________ will get over it soon," and the like.  

[Ndoki]

Indeed. I guess it's really impossible to say when or how it started, it would be as easy to prove as, say, a religion. There isn't really any way anymore, so we have to go with what we know and how we feel... I guess I really should have emphasized that more in my post... since that all really is my take on the whole thing.  

[zz1000zz]

Ndoki

Generally those who frequent art galleries, like the fine arts (such as dance and theatre) and who appretiate the finer things in life are goth. Goth has always been about the finer points in everything, in the extravagent and the intelligent

I think we must be living in different worlds. While a "goth" may do what you say, it hardly means the people who do it are goth. Think of a Venn diagram if you will.

If you accept this statement, goth must include so many people and groups that never considered themselves goth as to be absurd. So now the average art lover is a goth. The people who love opera, ballet and plays are goth. How can "goth" include so many people without diluting its meaning beyond recognition?

Of course, i believe this stems from your view of "preps." I love this one:

Quote:

Preps can be a few things, but really boiled down they usually have one thing in common, they follow the crowd, they are the ones that want to be popular and like everyone else. There are many other characteristics they exhibit, but that would be the most common by far.

So you have managed to divide the world's population into two groups. Goths are free thinkers, preps are mindless sheep following the herd. Now, rather than have preps and goths as two different groups in the world, they are now just opposite ends of a scale.

For all of the debate over the definition of "goth," i would think people would give some thought as to what a prep is. Because originally prep did not mean what you say it means.  

[Ndoki]

I have a quote for you.

"but really boiled down they usually have one thing in common"

So you can see there I'm specifying that my whole article is an oversimplification for ease of expressing and not having to be 'politically correct' in everything. Sorry if you missed that part.

Furthermore...

Quote:

originally prep did not mean what you say it means.

And originally gay meant happy, and goth meant a member of a Germanic people that overran the Roman Empire in the early centuries of the Christian era. Cool originally meant cold, and sex originally meant gender. Also every swear word teens use now had innocent meanings behind them in the past. Definitions change over time, and I don't know about where you live, but I have seen hundreds, if not thousands, of people referring to themselves, or others, as preps, even though they don't attend 'preparatory schools', so really, what's your point?