A question about a Llewellyn book i have.....

[Guardian 0f Heaven]

As well as studying Outer Court Wicca material (until I find a coven in which to be initiated and learn further about Wicca, the Mysteries and so on), i also study Witchcraft as i find it very interesting and I have one of the Llewellyn Witch's Spell-A-Day Alamanac books and i just wanted to know wether or not i should keep this book so to speak.

By the way, I didn't know about Llewelleyn books and what is bad or not etc on the whole until i joined this guild and that was not for quite a while and after i bought the book.

Also, please do let me know if there are any particularly good books i should take a look at for either Outer Court Wicca info and the like and/or Witchcraft sweatdrop .  

[Doctrix]

Guardian 0f Heaven

I have one of the Llewellyn Witch's Spell-A-Day Alamanac books and i just wanted to know wether or not i should keep this book so to speak.

I am of the personal opinion that, if you choose to read such books, there's not one that is going to hurt you more than another. Just read with a critical eye.

Guardian 0f Heaven

Let me know if there are any particularly good books i should take a look at for either Outer Court Wicca info and the like and/or Witchcraft

Well, that depends on what you mean by "good." I mean, all published materials are, by definition, not Wiccan. None of the books are "Outer Court material" unless you are reading them as part of your Outer Court. There are some Outer Courts that don't have you reading books at all. There are some Outer Courts that have you reading fiction novels off the best sellers list. There are some Outer Courts that have you reading philosophy and history textbooks.  

[Elizabeth Tarion]

How about Gardner's books? Wouldn't they be something an aspiring Wiccan should read?
(Yes, I realize that they're not Llewellyn books, but she is asking about books for Wicca)  

[Guardian 0f Heaven]

[Kudzu]

Guardian 0f Heaven

I have one of the Llewellyn Witch's Spell-A-Day Alamanac books and i just wanted to know wether or not i should keep this book so to speak.

I am of the personal opinion that, if you choose to read such books, there's not one that is going to hurt you more than another. Just read with a critical eye.

Guardian 0f Heaven

Let me know if there are any particularly good books i should take a look at for either Outer Court Wicca info and the like and/or Witchcraft

Well, that depends on what you mean by "good." I mean, all published materials are, by definition, not Wiccan. None of the books are "Outer Court material" unless you are reading them as part of your Outer Court. There are some Outer Courts that don't have you reading books at all. There are some Outer Courts that have you reading fiction novels off the best sellers list. There are some Outer Courts that have you reading philosophy and history textbooks.

"Good" as in informative and pretty much correct i guess....and yeah, as part of my Outer Court, i'm not very good at phrasing what i mean, heh sweatdrop  

[Doctrix]

Guardian 0f Heaven

Kudzu

Guardian 0f Heaven

Let me know if there are any particularly good books i should take a look at for either Outer Court Wicca info and the like and/or Witchcraft

Well, that depends on what you mean by "good." I mean, all published materials are, by definition, not Wiccan. None of the books are "Outer Court material" unless you are reading them as part of your Outer Court. There are some Outer Courts that don't have you reading books at all. There are some Outer Courts that have you reading fiction novels off the best sellers list. There are some Outer Courts that have you reading philosophy and history textbooks.

"Good" as in informative and pretty much correct i guess.

Well, like I said above, there are no published materials that I would consider informative or correct about Wiccan practice or lore! You can choose to either read about other systems or pieces of systems that you can practice in the meantime (which may or may not call themselves Wiccan,) or read history, philosophy, fiction and mythology. Which of these choices would you like?  

[TeaDidikai]

I'm inclined to call Gardner's books a good read for anyone looking to become Wiccan, not for the "religious" context, but for some vague insight into the founder of the religion's thoughts- at least, those he would share with others. mrgreen But then, I like pouring over dusty old texts to see what crazy old victorians and their later Spiritual Offspring had to say about things.  

[Elizabeth Tarion]

TeaDidikai

I'm inclined to call Gardner's books a good read for anyone looking to become Wiccan, not for the "religious" context, but for some vague insight into the founder of the religion's thoughts- at least, those he would share with others. mrgreen But then, I like pouring over dusty old texts to see what crazy old victorians and their later Spiritual Offspring had to say about things.

Aside from his insights (etc) I was under the impression that one or all of his books (I don't actually know, not having read them yet) contained all available OC material as an incentive to gain serious seekers of Wicca... is that not true, then?  

[TeaDidikai]

[Bavi]

TeaDidikai

I'm inclined to call Gardner's books a good read for anyone looking to become Wiccan, not for the "religious" context, but for some vague insight into the founder of the religion's thoughts- at least, those he would share with others. mrgreen But then, I like pouring over dusty old texts to see what crazy old victorians and their later Spiritual Offspring had to say about things.

Aside from his insights (etc) I was under the impression that one or all of his books (I don't actually know, not having read them yet) contained all available OC material as an incentive to gain serious seekers of Wicca... is that not true, then?

I think the party line is that due to the nature of the religion, all, some or none of any given Outer Court work may or may not be valid within the different lineaged sects.  

[Elizabeth Tarion]

TeaDidikai

[Bavi]

TeaDidikai

I'm inclined to call Gardner's books a good read for anyone looking to become Wiccan, not for the "religious" context, but for some vague insight into the founder of the religion's thoughts- at least, those he would share with others. mrgreen But then, I like pouring over dusty old texts to see what crazy old victorians and their later Spiritual Offspring had to say about things.

Aside from his insights (etc) I was under the impression that one or all of his books (I don't actually know, not having read them yet) contained all available OC material as an incentive to gain serious seekers of Wicca... is that not true, then?

I think the party line is that due to the nature of the religion, all, some or none of any given Outer Court work may or may not be valid within the different lineaged sects.

So should one not even bother trying to find OC material and just go coven hunting?
Also, if Gardner reveals OC material, and you say that some or none of any given OC material is valid, then doesn't that go against Gardnerian teachings?  

[TeaDidikai]

[Bavi]

So should one not even bother trying to find OC material and just go coven hunting?

Pretty much- so sayth the Lineaged Wiccans.

Quote:

Also, if Gardner reveals OC material, and you say that some or none of any given OC material is valid, then doesn't that go against Gardnerian teachings?

How so? If one cannot tell what is or is not valid, a Wiccan could look at you and say the Elemental Weapon of the sock drawer is the shoe horn- and you'd be none the wiser.

Also note there was a hell of a lot of controversy over Gardner's decision to take aspects of Wicca public. We'll also note that some of his books pre-date the "formation" of Wicca, such as his High Magic's Aid.  

[Elizabeth Tarion]

TeaDidikai

[Bavi]

So should one not even bother trying to find OC material and just go coven hunting?

Pretty much- so sayth the Lineaged Wiccans.

Quote:

Also, if Gardner reveals OC material, and you say that some or none of any given OC material is valid, then doesn't that go against Gardnerian teachings?

How so? If one cannot tell what is or is not valid, a Wiccan could look at you and say the Elemental Weapon of the sock drawer is the shoe horn- and you'd be none the wiser.

Also note there was a hell of a lot of controversy over Gardner's decision to take aspects of Wicca public. We'll also note that some of his books pre-date the "formation" of Wicca, such as his High Magic's Aid.

So OC material presented by Gardner in his books may not actually be actual Wicca material but a lie instead? Apparently I didn't realise the extent of Garner's paranoia.
I would just think that whatever Gardner, the founder of Wicca, presented as OC material would actually be OC material and not the other way around.
Perhaps the Frosts and their daughter-rape is actually Wiccan, for all I know.
I apologise if I've misunderstood something you've said, it's a bit late at night for me.  

[TeaDidikai]

[Bavi]

So OC material presented by Gardner in his books may not actually be actual Wicca material but a lie instead? Apparently I didn't realise the degree of Garner's paranoia.

Indeed. Very paranoid. But you have to understand (looking over Gardner's works) he didn't limit what was published to Wicca. He commented on a number of metaphysical techniques before he stopped using the term Wicca and Witchcraft as synonymns.

Quote:

Perhaps the Frosts and their daughter-rape is actually Wiccan, for all I know.

One thing I will note- is that most of the Intellectual Mystics of the age never advocated illegal activities- on the grounds that small groups drawing attention to themselves in such a way is bad for the a religion's survival.

Holds true with the Golden Dawn, the OTO, Wicca, TotV, Anton's Satanism...

wink Even Yeshua said to give Caesar his due.

Quote:

I apologise if I've misunderstood something you've said, it's a bit late at night for me.

No worries. And wait for a lineaged Wiccan (past or present) to confirm.  

[Elizabeth Tarion]

TeaDidikai

[Bavi]

So OC material presented by Gardner in his books may not actually be actual Wicca material but a lie instead? Apparently I didn't realise the degree of Garner's paranoia.

Indeed. Very paranoid. But you have to understand (looking over Gardner's works) he didn't limit what was published to Wicca. He commented on a number of metaphysical techniques before he stopped using the term Wicca and Witchcraft as synonymns.

I know he goes into the history of witchcraft traditions just by skimming the TOC of Witchcraft Today, but admittedly I don't see anything in it using the word 'Wicca', just 'witch'.

TeaDidikai

Quote:

Perhaps the Frosts and their daughter-rape is actually Wiccan, for all I know.

One thing I will note- is that most of the Intellectual Mystics of the age never advocated illegal activities- on the grounds that small groups drawing attention to themselves in such a way is bad for the a religion's survival.

Holds true with the Golden Dawn, the OTO, Wicca, TotV, Anton's Satanism...

wink Even Yeshua said to give Caesar his due.

While I understand the need for secrecy over some or perhaps most aspects of a Mystery Tradition, a bit of confirmation to people (particularly government officials) on whether or not such illegal activities are condoned to adhered to would seem necissary to me. Not only that but the fact that the Frosts claim the title Wiccan.

TeaDidikai

Quote:

I apologise if I've misunderstood something you've said, it's a bit late at night for me.

No worries. And wait for a lineaged Wiccan (past or present) to confirm.

*waits*  

[TeaDidikai]

[Bavi]

I know he goes into the history of witchcraft traditions just by skimming the TOC of Witchcraft Today, but admittedly I don't see anything in it using the word 'Wicca', just 'witch'.

After he established his religion, he didn't use the words enterchangeably as often.

Quote:

While I understand the need for secrecy over some or perhaps most aspects of a Mystery Tradition, a bit of confirmation to people (particularly government officials) on whether or not such illegal activities are condoned to adhered to would seem necissary to me. Not only that but the fact that the Frosts claim the title Wiccan.

Without knowledge about the Frosts assertion on their lineage, I couldn't say how legit their claim is. Bottom line- if they ever actually do such things- they aren't protected by the First Amendment ~makes the assumption that they are in the US~.

I'll also note that some Lineaged Wiccans do indeed use Outer Court materials and books as part of the training for their students. The key is the context in which the OC info is given, and the truths revealed and experienced upon initiation.  

[Doctrix]

Bavi

So should one not even bother trying to find OC material and just go coven hunting?

Yes, one would certainly be no worse off if one chose to do that.

Also, I keep noticing that this invented phrase "Outer Court material" has taken on a life of its own. Gardner may have published no Outer Court material at all, because he may not have used any of those materials to teach his own Outer Courts! Each Outer Court is different. Some Outer Courts have no books required at all. Some require people to read history or philosophy textbooks, or fiction from the best sellers list. There is no standardized "Outer Court material" and no Outer Court teaches actual Wiccan practice or lore. It's just a getting-to-know-you time, and most groups treat it as such, with maybe a little book club thrown in to entice Seekers or to get a feel for what they're interested in and whether it clashes with the group's beliefs.