The Naturalistic Pagan

[Tenzin Chodron]

[ Message temporarily off-line ]  

[TeaDidikai]

My first reaction is something along the lines of "Gee, for someone who likes to base their stuff "on good evidence" they didn't work to hard in the area of research otherwise they would have known that the "Wheel of the Year", is not Celtic, but Northern European Fusion"

I'm also willing to bet that the "cross quarters" they celebrate, aren't actually on the cross quarter days, but on the usual Gregorian Calender days- such as May 1, Oct 31, Feb 2 and Aug 2.

Once again I see a major problem within the loss of context when an Eclectic (or in this case, Naturalistic) borrows things without the context that explains them, nor has the good sense to make their own traditions as the context of other traditions does not apply to their belief.  

[CuAnnan]

Your beliefs are strongly influenced by the traditions of neo-paganism derived from various Celtic made up spiritual Paths.

Jizo Bosatsu

A. I celebrate the 8 holidays on the Wheel of the Year (the solstices and equinoxes, plus the cross-quarter holidays). Because these are real astronomical events, they feel more like real holidays than dates made up by people.

What was the date of Bealtaine.
STOP ******** MIS SPELLING MY RELIGIOUS HOLIDAYS.
STOP ******** MIXING MY RELIGIOUS HOLIDAYS UP WITH THE NORDIC ONES

Jizo Bosatsu

They also celebrate the Wheel of Life, with youth at Beltane and death at Samhain, etc.

Provide support for this bastardisation of my religious holidays.  

[maenad nuri]

Sounds like an archtypal diety structure within a generic neo-pagan framework. Hair-pulling for some of us, but with a few tweakings, valid.

Maybe to help you figure out what you believe, and a general framework, can you describe what you don't like about neo-paganism?  

[Tenzin Chodron]

I'll admit that the material presented at that site is irk-some, as is the overwhelming majority of neo-pagan material. What struck me as being nice about this idea, aside from the semantics, was the idea of celebrating those events which are actual astronomical events.

I do celebrate the equinoxes and the solstices. I, personally, do not recognize the other four sabbats. There is also a greater emphasis on the natural world, rather than "how pretty flowers and trees and stuff are, lyk omg!"

 

[Tenzin Chodron]

Nuri

Sounds like an archtypal diety structure within a generic neo-pagan framework. Hair-pulling for some of us, but with a few tweakings, valid.

I agree whole-heartedly that tweaking must take place.

Nuri

Maybe to help you figure out what you believe, and a general framework, can you describe what you don't like about neo-paganism?

I'm not partial to the emphasis placed on deity. I don't connect well to the idea of personified deities, or even talk of what deity is. I'm not comfortable with cultural rape, but I'm not prepared to become a reconstructionalist, either. I don't accept the existence of the soul (and the overwhelming majority of neo-pagans just seem to believe it's there, without really knowing why, or having reasons that I can't personally accept).

Most of the neo-pagans I've come across are more interested in magic than introspection. With accumulating and learning transcient things, often rejecting the value in not knowing, in unlearning.

I also have a problem with how vehemently people cling to their perceptions and their opinions as though they were absolute truths, and that I'm somehow inferior or in need of "education" for thinking otherwise (or not thinking at all) - but this is more of a problem with people in general and not just the neo-pagans in general.

I'm also not comfortable with the idea of having to survive on a wage. Of having to work for a company to earn money so I can exchange it for what I need to survive (which the Earth produces for free anyway - food, water, shelter). Again, this has more to do with people and our culture in general than it does neo-paganism.  

[TeaDidikai]

Within that context the path makes a lot more sense.
Are you looking for an intergraded spiritual path? I use the term to describe a relation with spirituality that blurs the line between lived experience and belief.  

[maenad nuri]

Actually, that makes a lot of sense, as Tea said. It actually strikes a chord within myself, except I do emphasize diety and soul.

Tea makes sense here, an intergraded spiritual and living seems most appriopriate. I'm not even sure you need a specific path to tell you what you believe. If you need a community of like-minded people, take a look at some of the following keywords:
Green Living
Voluntary Simplicity
Organic Living  

[TeaDidikai]

Nuri

Actually, that makes a lot of sense, as Tea said. It actually strikes a chord within myself, except I do emphasize diety and soul.

Tea makes sense here, an intergraded spiritual and living seems most appriopriate. I'm not even sure you need a specific path to tell you what you believe. If you need a community of like-minded people, take a look at some of the following keywords:
Green Living
Voluntary Simplicity
Organic Living

Heck. You don't even need a community.
I do just fine hunting, fishing, animal husbandry (when I have the space) digging shell fish, gardening, wild crafting, trapping etc- without a whole community who agrees with my lifestyle let alone my spiritual path. One person in my social circle has common values and desires and the rest are along because of safety (going up into the woods alone is not a good idea).

With or without a community of support it is completely possible to create the kind of lifestyle you desire.

This is also why the common holidays resonate with me as they do. These seasons mark shifts in my diet and activities in social artistic and sustenance related expression.  

[quantum_leaper]

Jizo Bosatsu

I'm also not comfortable with the idea of having to survive on a wage. Of having to work for a company to earn money so I can exchange it for what I need to survive (which the Earth produces for free anyway - food, water, shelter). Again, this has more to do with people and our culture in general than it does neo-paganism.

?

While having beliefs are nice, we have to live in the real world. Unless you want to go back to the days of the caveman and go live in a cave, pick berries from bushes and e drink from rivers. The earth does not produce shelter for freee(Unless we are talking about caves).  

[blindfaith^_^]

quantum_leaper

?

While having beliefs are nice, we have to live in the real world. Unless you want to go back to the days of the caveman and go live in a cave, pick berries from bushes and e drink from rivers. The earth does not produce shelter for freee(Unless we are talking about caves).

While the earth doesn't instantly produce what we consider shelter today, it is still responsible for the base materials. Wood (though most houses are made out of that weird siding stuff where I live) comes right out of nature. If one knew how to assemble a home and had the time and energy to build one, their home could come right out of nature. Just because nature's not hitting you on the head with it doesn't mean the materials aren't there.

I'll also note that most of our crops aren't "found in nature" in the mass quanities we create them in. They need to be grown and serval of them need to go through human processes (i.e. cotton goes through the gin to pick out all the seeds) before we can use them. However, at its core, nature does provide these materials to us.

I'm not sure you can live without a wage, due to the sort of laws humans have set up, but what is said about nature's ability to provide seems to be fair enough to me, if you're willing to work for it.  

[TheDisreputableDog]

quantum_leaper

?

While having beliefs are nice, we have to live in the real world. Unless you want to go back to the days of the caveman and go live in a cave, pick berries from bushes and e drink from rivers. The earth does not produce shelter for freee(Unless we are talking about caves).

It's not really that difficult if you have the knowledge and experience needed--and the space to do it in. The earth produces shelter for free (that is, no money must be exchanged for it) if you know where to find it or how to make it for yourself. It's not all berries from bushes either--trapping, hunting, and fishing are also viable means of sustenance. These aren't just beliefs, there are practical means of living such a life just fine. If you have the proper environment to do it in... which we are constantly sacrificing to "the real world."  

[maenad nuri]

But you could "live off the grid" so to speak. Alternative energy sources, houses built out of cob, hay, all sorts of materials (I've often thought about building a cob house). Grow your own food, buy eco and fair trade clothing.

You can do it, it takes work, it takes planning, it takes being willing to go without a lot of modernity, but you can do it. You'll still have to earn some sort of wage, but that doesn't mean you have to work for a company.  

[Deoridhe]

I knew a person quite a few years ago who ended up calling herself a Green Witch. She had a distant but amicable relationship with a Moon Goddess of unknown origin (though she might know now; it's been quite a few years). Her main religious practice was in the finding, caring, and healing of plants. She excelled at it. It was amazing to watch.

"Naturalistic" is a tricky concept. Technically speaking, anything done by humans is "natural" because we are ourselves a part of nature.

I am disturbed by people who try to distance themselves from civilization using the claim that it is "unnatural." It seems an inherently false dichotomy. I love beautiful mountains. I also love beautiful overpasses (have you ever seen one of those three or four curve dealies that are like giant, interwoven bridges? GORGEOUS!). A drive away from modern, western civilization (MWC) I can see, but I also question how conversant these people are with hunter-gatherer style living (HGL).

HGL is very physically demanding and very time consuming. One of the side effects of MWC is that much less time is given to food gathering and cooking and much more is given to utilization of the cortex of the brain. Neither of these is inherently superior or inferior to the other, but before lauding the virtues of HGL, I'd recommend spending a year living it. 3nodding  

[quantum_leaper]

No i'd agree that you don't have to work for a company, You could found your own.

But we moved away from the barter system years ago and money is nesscity in this day and age.Hell there has been money around for thousands of years.

Your house may come from wood, but how does that wood get from being a tree one day to part of your wall the next?

Someone goes and cuts it, It then gets trimmed and cut. Then it gets sanded etc...

And eventually its gets added to a wall of a house.

If you can do that then fair enough but most people dont have the skills to be able to live completely independatly from everyone else. Because thats what you are saying. we need goods and services from others and the barter system doesnt tend to go down too well these days.

If its not really that difficult then why aren't you out doing it already?

There is the real world to think about i' afraid. If everyone suddenly wanted to go back to nature we'd soon find there isnt enough room for use all.

I am all for alternate methods of doing things like Nuri is saying but it must be tempered with a certain dose of reality and doing without a lot of things.Personally i like my computer too much...