Eclectic Wicca

[Neko_Bast]

Now, I know I'm going to get flamed and called fluffy by some members, but since no one had said anything about it I thought I would.

I am an Eclectic Wiccan. I already know that a lot of Traditionalists will tell me that I'm not wiccan, but a heritic. That I can't know the "Wiccan Goddess and God" unless one of them tells me. That I can't posibly know the Mysteries because I haven't been initiated. I don't belive that. I belive that the Mysteries will come to you from the Goddess when she feels you are ready, and that she dosn't need another Wiccan to initiate her people. I didn't always call myself a Wiccan but I feel that she has acsepted me as one of her own. Recently I'v been going through the arcives at Witchvox and found some articles that I felt reflected my thoughts very well.

Quote:

What Is Wicca? (And Where Do We Draw The Line?)
From An Eclectic's Point Of View
Of Witches And Hate

 

[Kal Eldritch]

*sigh* what part of orthopraxy do people not understand? Look, I have no problem with you being an eclectic, but you simply cannot be a wiccan unless you follow the rules to the letter. You can still believe in the mysteries, but if you call yourself an eclectic, you'll just have to content yourself with calling yourself a pagan and not a wiccan.

Gardner's probably turning over in his grave right now with all of this foreplay to a wiccan schism...  

[Pelta]

Neko_Bast

I am an Eclectic Wiccan. I already know that a lot of Traditionalists will tell me that I'm not wiccan, but a heritic. That I can't know the "Wiccan Goddess and God" unless one of them tells me. That I can't posibly know the Mysteries because I haven't been initiated. I don't belive that. I belive that the Mysteries will come to you from the Goddess when she feels you are ready, and that she dosn't need another Wiccan to initiate her people. I didn't always call myself a Wiccan but I feel that she has acsepted me as one of her own.

But how do you know that the Wiccan Goddess has accepted you? And what happened to the 'God' in your statements there, by the way? The two of them work together. I'm pretty sure you have to be accepted by both of them...

And this has always puzzled me: Why are people hung up on calling themselves Wiccan? Because it's cool or something? What the hell is wrong with calling yourself eclectic? Or if you're that serious about it, why can't you call yourself a Wiccan Dedicant and start looking for a coven?  

[crystal_raye]

Who are we, tiny little humans, to decide who's a true "initiated" follower of the Lord and Lady and who's not? Just because someone bases their rituals and rites off an ancient pratice and it becomes a tradition doesn't mean that it will get you any closer to the Divine than someone who doesn't follow it.

Please don't flame. Just voicing my opinion.  

[Neko_Bast]

crystal_raye

Who are we, tiny little humans, to decide who's a true "initiated" follower of the Lord and Lady and who's not? Just because someone bases their rituals and rites off an ancient pratice and it becomes a tradition doesn't mean that it will get you any closer to the Divine than someone who doesn't follow it.

Please don't flame. Just voicing my opinion.

Thank you. That was well put. Why can't the God and Goddess Initiate people? Are some people so hung up on them selves that they don't think that the Goddess and God can call who they will without there say so? I personaly believ that I was Initiated by them and need no "linaged Wiccan" to tell me what I am.  

[Neko_Bast]

missmagpie

And this has always puzzled me: Why are people hung up on calling themselves Wiccan? Because it's cool or something? What the hell is wrong with calling yourself eclectic? Or if you're that serious about it, why can't you call yourself a Wiccan Dedicant and start looking for a coven?

Nothing is wrong with just being eclectic. I never said there was. I have been studing Wicca for 7 years and am not calling myself Wiccan because its "cool." It tooke me a long time to think of myself as Wiccan, only in the past couple of years after I was initiated by the God and Goddess. Its true that many people that are not serious will call themselves eclectic, but that dosn't mean I'm one of them  

[LadyEladrin]

Neko_Bast

I belive that the Mysteries will come to you from the Goddess when she feels you are ready, and that she dosn't need another Wiccan to initiate her people.

Quote:

What Is Wicca? (And Where Do We Draw The Line?)
From An Eclectic's Point Of View
Of Witches And Hate

That's a very interesting, and I believe, valid perspective and that you actually provide sources and sites to back up your perspective and opinion is even better. Personally, I feel the same way you do, even though I'm not Wiccan, that the Mysteries are universal and will come to you in time and don't necessarily have to come from another Wiccan initiate. How do you know that they're the 'right' mysteries is an absurd question. That's saying that some Mysteries are more valid than others, that a certain pair of God and Goddess is more right or powerful than all of the others.  

[CuAnnan]

Neko_Bast

crystal_raye

Who are we, tiny little humans, to decide who's a true "initiated" follower of the Lord and Lady and who's not? Just because someone bases their rituals and rites off an ancient pratice and it becomes a tradition doesn't mean that it will get you any closer to the Divine than someone who doesn't follow it.

Please don't flame. Just voicing my opinion.

Thank you. That was well put. Why can't the God and Goddess Initiate people? Are some people so hung up on them selves that they don't think that the Goddess and God can call who they will without there say so? I personaly believ that I was Initiated by them and need no "linaged Wiccan" to tell me what I am.

Right, I realise that this isn't M&R, this is the PFRG.

I call foul. I call this an intentional attempt at blurring the lines between Wicca and Ecclectic paganism with outer court wiccan influence. As such

I demand the Elemental weapon of Ether from you both.
I demand, via pm if you must, the Sacred Names of the Lord and Lady.
I demand publically an explanation of the nature and reasoning behind the Great Rite.
I demand a justification other than "I feel I've been called by Higher Powers which have EXPLICITLY referred to themselvs as the Lord and Lady as described by Gerald Gardner's religion and have decided to reveal myself to you outside of Initiation" that you can KNOW the beings you're worshipping are the Lord and Lady of Wicca.

I've been nice with you two before this. Now I'm pulling out the stops. Provide proof that the deities you're worshipping that are calling to you are the Deities of Wicca that are ONLY revealed at initiation.

Either that or STOP TRYING TO BLUR THE LINE BETWEEN WICCA AND MAKE IT UP AS YOU GO ALONG PAGANISM.

Sorry, mods.  

[CuAnnan]

Neko_Bast

Nothing is wrong with just being eclectic. I never said there was. I have been studing Wicca for 7 years and am not calling myself Wiccan because its "cool." It tooke me a long time to think of myself as Wiccan, only in the past couple of years after I was initiated by the God and Goddess. Its true that many people that are not serious will call themselves eclectic, but that dosn't mean I'm one of them

What do you qualify as Wiccan?
Where were you studying Wicca?
What books did you read?
What lineaged material did you use?
Why are you insistant on using the term Wicca?
What comparatives can you make between the "Wicca" you study and the Wicca of lineaged covens?  

[Neko_Bast]

reagun ban

Neko_Bast

crystal_raye

Who are we, tiny little humans, to decide who's a true "initiated" follower of the Lord and Lady and who's not? Just because someone bases their rituals and rites off an ancient pratice and it becomes a tradition doesn't mean that it will get you any closer to the Divine than someone who doesn't follow it.

Please don't flame. Just voicing my opinion.

Thank you. That was well put. Why can't the God and Goddess Initiate people? Are some people so hung up on them selves that they don't think that the Goddess and God can call who they will without there say so? I personaly believ that I was Initiated by them and need no "linaged Wiccan" to tell me what I am.

Right, I realise that this isn't M&R, this is the PFRG.

I call foul. I call this an intentional attempt at blurring the lines between Wicca and Ecclectic paganism with outer court wiccan influence. As such

I demand the Elemental weapon of Ether from you both.
I demand, via pm if you must, the Sacred Names of the Lord and Lady.
I demand publically an explanation of the nature and reasoning behind the Great Rite.
I demand a justification other than "I feel I've been called by Higher Powers which have EXPLICITLY referred to themselvs as the Lord and Lady as described by Gerald Gardner's religion and have decided to reveal myself to you outside of Initiation" that you can KNOW the beings you're worshipping are the Lord and Lady of Wicca.

I've been nice with you two before this. Now I'm pulling out the stops. Provide proof that the deities you're worshipping that are calling to you are the Deities of Wicca that are ONLY revealed at initiation.

Either that or STOP TRYING TO BLUR THE LINE BETWEEN WICCA AND MAKE IT UP AS YOU GO ALONG PAGANISM.

Sorry, mods.

Exuse me. You demand? I don't owe you anything. I'm not clameing to be part of Gardner's tradition. Not only that, its not his religion. He just publised it. As for proof, there is no proof I could give you that you would acsept. I haven't been initiated into Gardner's tradition, or those that branced off, so I don't know the stuff that thoses initiats know. I do know that trying to put the God and Goddess into a little box is insulting to them. I don't have to prove myself to you, because I'm not that insicure. You obviously didn't read the articles.  

[TeaDidikai]

Neko_Bast

Exuse me. You demand? I don't owe you anything. I'm not clameing to be part of Gardner's tradition. Not only that, its not his religion. He just publised it.

Well, created it. He never actually published the religion in full.

Quote:

As for proof, there is no proof I could give you that you would acsept. I haven't been initiated into Gardner's tradition, or those that branced off, so I don't know the stuff that thoses initiats know.

So... you admit you don't know what Wicca is?

Quote:

I do know that trying to put the God and Goddess into a little box is insulting to them.

No it's not. It's insulting to you. It's like watching a Child be told no by a parent and because the toddler isn't listening, they through a pissy fit.

By the way- I believe that it is far more insulting to RAPE THE TRADITION OF THE WICCAN GOD AND GODDESS than it is to define them by what they taught their Children, aka the actual Wiccans. Bravo. You failed.

Quote:

I don't have to prove myself to you, because I'm not that insicure. You obviously didn't read the articles.

You do- because you are making a false assertion.

You calling yourself a Wiccan is no more valid than me calling myself an MD because I took a YMCA First Aid Course. It doesn't fly and it makes you a LIAR. Got it?  

[CuAnnan]

Neko_Bast

Exuse me. You demand? I don't owe you anything.

Yes, I demand. Perhaps I should have put that in bold.
You most certainly do owe me something.
You are undermining the work I did for initiation by claiming it's unneccessary.

Neko_Bast

I'm not clameing to be part of Gardner's tradition.

Nor are you claiming to be a member of any of the traditions which stemmed off his tradition. The blanket name for this set of religions is Wicca. If you are not a member of one of those sects, you are not a Wiccan.

Neko_Bast

Not only that, its not his religion.

Yes it is.

Neko_Bast

He just publised it.

And made it up.

Neko_Bast

As for proof, there is no proof I could give you that you would acsept.

Sure there is, I listed a series of questions.
I'll accept answers to them all as evidence.

Neko_Bast

I haven't been initiated into Gardner's tradition, or those that branced off, so I don't know the stuff that thoses initiats know.

And are therefore not wiccan.

Neko_Bast

I do know that trying to put the God and Goddess into a little box is insulting to them.

That's nice.

Neko_Bast

I don't have to prove myself to you, because I'm not that insicure.

And that's a cop out.

Neko_Bast

You obviously didn't read the articles.

You seem to misunderstand me. Those articles are based on a major fallacy, that those who are not part of a religion (ecclectic pagans who decided to call themselves wiccan mostly because it is easier than ecclectic pagan) deciding that they are part of a religion (wicca).
Show me an article written by a LINEAGED wiccan which maintains your position or stop whining.  

[Neko_Bast]

wow...you really didn't read the articles whee

reagun ban

What do you qualify as Wiccan?

Lets see..... This is an interesting question. What does qualify? I think I'll take a quote that puts it much better than I could ever wright it.
"Wicca is a Neo-Pagan religion embracing pre-Christian Deities, the holiness of nature, and the use of magick. It pays homage to both the masculine and feminine Divine, can have male and female members, and can be practiced in either solitary or group (coven) situations. Wiccans follow the eight major Sabbats of the ancient world (Samhain, Yule, Imbolc, Spring Equinox, Beltane, Midsummer, Lughnassadh, and Mabon), and have a specific ritual structure that has particular methodologies for creating sacred space, working the elementals, involving the divine, and raising magickal power. Wicca is a ceremonial religion, one that is practiced ritually, and that has certain basic ritual tools to aid in its practice. Wiccans follow a basic code of ethics, embodied in the Wiccan Rede: "An it harm none, do what thee wilt". Wiccans believe in both the positive and negative consequences of their actions, sometimes called "karma". Wiccans do not proselytize, but they will share what they know about their faith to those who seek."

Quote:

Where were you studying Wicca?

I was studying on my own from books and askind advice from people on the internet, if you must know.

Quote:

What books did you read?

You want a list? Fine, here are some of the authers.
Gail Duff
Ellen Dugan
Scott Cunningham (all of them)
Deborah Lipp
Edain McCoy
StarHawk
and many others I have borowed form my fiance that I can't remember.

Quote:

What lineaged material did you use?

Lineaged material? Well, I don't know if what I use is Lineaged enuff for you, but once I do something once and it works I use it again. I feel that creating my own material is better than just using something that was given to me that I was told was "the right way."

Quote:

Why are you insistant on using the term Wicca?

Why are you insisting that I can't be? I use the term Wicca because of many reasons. The main one is because when I think of my self as anything other than Wiccan it dosn't feel right. I was initiated by the God and Goddess, who are you to question them.

Quote:

What comparatives can you make between the "Wicca" you study and the Wicca of lineaged covens?

Sure, I don't know every thing. I'm sure that they know things that I don't, but I don't feel the need to know them. If I did, I would find a teacher in a lineaged coven. The main difference between them and me, in my mind, is that they all do things the same way, have secerts that I won't know, and feel the need to be told what is the right way to do things. When I'm told something is "the right way" I test it to see if it fits with me. If it does I incorporate it into my Path.  

[Neko_Bast]

just so you know .....i'm taking time to reply. So if its affter you reply agin its because you type faster than me. ^-^  

[Neko_Bast]

TeaDidikai

So... you admit you don't know what Wicca is?

No. I'm saying that there is more to Wicca than what they know. As someone that is not part of a tradition I don't know some things they do.

Quote:

No it's not. It's insulting to you. It's like watching a Child be told no by a parent and because the toddler isn't listening, they through a pissy fit.

No I'm not, you are.

Quote:

You do- because you are making a false assertion.

Why? Because you can't see my point of veiw?