Tips for Aspiring Wiccans

[TheDisreputableDog]

I, for one, know some things about Wicca in theory, but not much in the practical sense. Things like "How does one trust or verify the lineage of a coven?" are beyond me, and I think they'd be helpful to know for anyone who thinks Wicca is right for hir but doesn't know how to get started. (Nothing that would break an oath, obviously, but beginner's tips shouldn't be a problem.)

[If this belongs in the Pathways subforum, can somebody with "teh p0w3r" please move it? Thanks.]  

[TeaDidikai]

Tricky one. Some basic questions (the ones everyone sees on the forums- lineage, coven name, elemental weapon of eggplant...) are a good start.

Double checking outer court material can help as well.

Lineage and Coven name can be checked not only in the answer they give, but at times in what is not said as well.

For example, if you ask the name of the Lord and Lady- and their reaction is "Hell no! That's oath bound"- that tells you a lot right there.

Sometimes people throw in trick questions as well. The Thirteen Fold Kiss for example.

sweatdrop Not sure I'm helping here. Where's Reagun?  

[Deoridhe]

I add in ask lots of questions about the lineage and see if you can talk to someone a step back and ask if they've trained so-and-so. I wouldn't say you have to go ALL the way back, but at least one step wouldn't hurt.

Also, talk to other members of the coven besides your teacher. If they won't let you, worry.  

[TeaDidikai]

Here's one- ask them to explain why something is oath bound.

It's two fold really. On the one hand, they should know why, on the other, their ability to teach by explaining a concept will help you get a feel if they would be a good teacher to begin with!  

[Doctrix]

Howdy! I've been a Seeker of Wicca for years, and have worked with a number of my local lineaged Covens during my search for "home." As a result, I've been kind of steeped in this strange culture of trying to find answers to the very questions folks have been posting, so perhaps I can add some words from my experience. Keep in mind that I am not yet Initiated (it's coming up on the 11th, I'm so excited), so my words are not those of a Wiccan. I've just learned the hard way that there are proper and improper ways to do things as a Seeker!

TheDisreputableDog

How does one trust or verify the lineage of a coven?

It's very important to verify lineage. Real Wiccans will expect this and will admire you for taking this bold but necessary step. Don't worry, they won't feel insulted! The first step in verification is to ask your Wiccan who will vouch for them. They will give you the contact information of other Wiccans who are willing to have their contact information given out to Seekers like us! Don't be alarmed if they don't give you the name and address of their Initiator. Maybe their Initiator isn't down with that kind of thing. Contact the people and verify your Wiccan's story.

The next step is to get independent verifications. That means that if you already know a Wiccan, even if they live far away from the Wiccan you've found, you can contact your known Wiccan and ask if they can get anyone to vouch for your found Wiccan. Your known Wiccan will be able to go through the proper channels to find a vouch. If you don't know ANY Wiccans anywhere, then you can try joining a list like Amberandjet.org and posting something like "can anyone vouch for a [insert Trad here] Wiccan in [insert state here]" and wait for responses. You'd be surprised how many independent vouches will come out of the woodwork! Also, this will get easier with time as you get in contact with verified Wiccans who can route your questions quickly to the appropriate people.

I can't stress enough how important the above process is. I wish it were written out more eloquently than the above as a million Stickies, because this is pretty much the only appropriate way for a totally clueless Seeker to verify lineage. Inappropriate ways will be discussed below.

TeaDidikai

Some basic questions (the ones everyone sees on the forums- lineage, coven name, elemental weapon of eggplant...) are a good start. [...] Sometimes people throw in trick questions as well. The Thirteen Fold Kiss for example.

I'm going to have to disagree with you, there. Using questions about any actual content is called "oath-baiting" in Wiccan circles. True enough the phonies might jump at the bait, but you'll scare away the real Wiccans, who will most likely not even reply to such questions. Trick questions are good, clean fun for rabble-rousers, but are no way for a Seeker to behave, in my opinion.

TeaDidikai

Double checking outer court material can help as well.

Again, I'll have to disagree. There is no standardized outer court materials. I've worked with three different outer courts and they've all been totally different. Outer court has no actual Wiccan material. It's just a getting-to-know-you time, and some Wiccans use it as such by simply sitting and having Socratic seminars or book clubs with their students. Other Wiccans prepare a watered-down 101 course to attract interested Seekers, but the materials might change totally on a whim. My most recent outer court set up the altar differently every single circle just to see if we'd notice.

TeaDidikai

If you ask the name of the Lord and Lady- and their reaction is "Hell no! That's oath bound"- that tells you a lot right there.

Again, oath-baiting is frowned upon. Since Wiccans are told to "neither confirm nor deny," you'll find a lot of these kinds of "test" questions will be met with total silence, as to shout out what's oath-bound is idiotic. Worse yet, using this method to ferret out real Wiccans might get you labeled as some jerk out to start a flame war, rather than a sincere and respectful Seeker. And yes, word DOES get around.

Deoridhe

I add in ask lots of questions about the lineage and see if you can talk to someone a step back and ask if they've trained so-and-so. I wouldn't say you have to go ALL the way back, but at least one step wouldn't hurt.

This one is worth asking, but don't be alarmed f they won't tell you the name of their Initiator, or if they give you only obscure, outer court names that other Wiccans don't recognize. Sometimes, two Wiccans who are both Initiated Elders will verify each other by doing something they call the "Elder dance" where they probe out names one at a time, a step back at a time, like Deoridhe is talking about here. However, as a Seeker, you won't be led down that road, since not everyone's Initiator wants to be outed. Instead, ask for references from folks who are willing to speak to a Seeker, and try to get names that other Wiccans will recognize rather than some Wiccan's WitchVox screen name of the week. Again, all of these are lessons I've learned the hard way!

PM me if you're a Seeker and have questions that I might be able to answer.  

[CuAnnan]

[Kudzu]

Advice

Oh, how I've longed for this day.... someone else to join the crusade against fluffdom who's got a degree.  

[TeaDidikai]

[Kudzu]

TeaDidikai

Some basic questions (the ones everyone sees on the forums- lineage, coven name, elemental weapon of eggplant...) are a good start. [...] Sometimes people throw in trick questions as well. The Thirteen Fold Kiss for example.

I'm going to have to disagree with you, there. Using questions about any actual content is called "oath-baiting" in Wiccan circles. True enough the phonies might jump at the bait, but you'll scare away the real Wiccans, who will most likely not even reply to such questions. Trick questions are good, clean fun for rabble-rousers, but are no way for a Seeker to behave, in my opinion.

Please explain why Lineage, Coven name and the Elemental Weapon of ether- non oathbound material, is "oath bating"?

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Again, I'll have to disagree. There is no standardized outer court materials. I've worked with three different outer courts and they've all been totally different. Outer court has no actual Wiccan material. It's just a getting-to-know-you time, and some Wiccans use it as such by simply sitting and having Socratic seminars or book clubs with their students. Other Wiccans prepare a watered-down 101 course to attract interested Seekers, but the materials might change totally on a whim. My most recent outer court set up the altar differently every single circle just to see if we'd notice.

Ah, but there would have to be something "different" to notice.

At this point it is important to realize we aren't talking about someone who has been accepted into a Dedicant study program. We're talking about finding people to be accepted amongst.

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Again, oath-baiting is frowned upon. Since Wiccans are told to "neither confirm nor deny," you'll find a lot of these kinds of "test" questions will be met with total silence, as to shout out what's oath-bound is idiotic.

Funny, none of the real Wiccans I have met have done such. A simple, "I cannot tell you that" has always been an acceptable response.

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Worse yet, using this method to ferret out real Wiccans might get you labeled as some jerk out to start a flame war, rather than a sincere and respectful Seeker. And yes, word DOES get around.

I am beginning to wonder if this is universally Wiccan, or if it is a function of region.  

[Doctrix]

reagun ban

Oh, how I've longed for this day.... someone else to join the crusade against fluffdom who's got a degree.

*lol* I've waited long for the day, also! Although I don't know about a crusade... wink

TeaDidikai

Kudzu

Using questions about any actual content is called "oath-baiting" in Wiccan circles. True enough the phonies might jump at the bait, but you'll scare away the real Wiccans, who will most likely not even reply to such questions. Trick questions are good, clean fun for rabble-rousers, but are no way for a Seeker to behave, in my opinion.

Please explain why Lineage, Coven name and the Elemental Weapon of ether- non oathbound material, is "oath bating"?

First of all, lineage is oathbound. One does not rattle off names of Wiccans because they are bound never to out somebody who doesn't want to be outed. Some Wiccans will tell you a little about lineage (i.e. a Gardnerian might say they come from the Bone line), but naming names of those who don't want to be named may be an offence punishable by banishment. The coven name might be oathbound (although they may have chosen a non-oathbound outer court name in addition to their real name). All the tools and practices of WIcca and their correspondances are oathbound. These are my current beliefs. Since I am not yet Wiccan, I can shout out these beliefs because I could be wrong!

Wiccans are told to "neither confirm nor deny" any information about Wiccan practice. So, when people ask questions about things that may or may not have anything to do with Wiccan practice, a Wiccan would be stupid to shout out that it is not Wiccan. Why, by that way of thinking, one could use the process of elimination to find out things about Wicca! Many Wiccans are chastised on email lists like A&J for this mistake. So, any questions about the practices of Wicca may be considered oath-baiting, especially when it is asked in an insincere manner by somebody trying to "test" a Wiccan.

TeaDidikai

Kudzu

My most recent outer court set up the altar differently every single circle just to see if we'd notice.

Ah, but there would have to be something "different" to notice.

I don't think I made my point clear enough. The outer court's Pagan altar was set up one way during the first circle, and another way in the second circle. You can tell there's a difference, regardless of the fact that the altar and everything on it was not Wiccan.

TeaDidikai

Kudzu

Since Wiccans are told to "neither confirm nor deny," you'll find a lot of these kinds of "test" questions will be met with total silence, as to shout out what's oath-bound is idiotic.

Funny, none of the real Wiccans I have met have done such. A simple, "I cannot tell you that" has always been an acceptable response.

True enough, as a student I have often gotten "I cannot tell you that yet" in answer to a sincere question. But I am referring to rude "test" questions about Wiccan practices. When you got that answer from a Wiccan, they were being quite kind, indeed. I'm willing to admit there are kind Wiccans out there, so I believe you! Sorry if I was wrong about Wiccans keeping silent. I'll be happy to modify that to say that some of them will. smile

TeaDidikai

Kudzu

Using this method to ferret out real Wiccans might get you labeled as some jerk out to start a flame war, rather than a sincere and respectful Seeker. And yes, word DOES get around.

I am beginning to wonder if this is universally Wiccan, or if it is a function of region.

Some of my statements may indeed be regionally biased. But I personally believe the above statements on oath-bating are not, since folks talk about the issue of rude Seeker behavior quite openly on the international A&J email list, and chastise those who come on the list displaying such behavior, banning those who claim to present any materials from a Wiccan BOS. Of course, all of the above are just my opinions, and are thus coloured by my own personal biases from my experiences.  

[TeaDidikai]

[Kudzu]

First of all, lineage is oathbound. One does not rattle off names of Wiccans because they are bound never to out somebody who doesn't want to be outed.

Which is part of the 161 Laws, but can be explained through a simple HP>HPS>Husband as HP, Friend's HPS> Gardner, and other such charts. The lineage itself is not oathbound, the names can be protected, but are not oathbound unto themselves. I know my friend Pete's lineage for example. (t's rather short and he, like the HPS that initiated him, and Gardner himself- were all very open and active Wiccans.

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Some Wiccans will tell you a little about lineage (i.e. a Gardnerian might say they come from the Bone line), but naming names of those who don't want to be named may be an offence punishable by banishment. The coven name is oathbound (although they may have chosen a non-oathbound outer court name in addition to their real name).

Never heard of a Coven name being Oathbound. Cite a source on that one for me?

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All the tools and practices of WIcca and their correspondances are oathbound.

Ummmmm... the EWoE is not oath bound- that's why it is a great question. Last I checked, most of the standard OC info on tools is indeed accurate. I'd have to ask to see if this is true, but I have no reason to believe that aside from slight tradition variances, they would be incorrect.

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Wiccans are told to "neither confirm nor deny" any information about Wiccan practice.

Some Wiccans. I know lineaged Wiccans who can indeed confirm and deny, within reason.

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So, when people ask questions about things that may or may not have anything to do with Wiccan practice, a Wiccan would be stupid to shout out that it is not Wiccan. Why, by that way of thinking, one could use the process of elimination to find out things about Wicca!

Not completely. One can learn and ask questions without actually learning the mysteries. If I asked Reagun what the five fold kiss was, as outer court material, he could tell me. If I asked him what Mysteries it held, he could, should and would politely tell me to "shut it pet".

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Many Wiccans are chastised on email lists like A&J for this mistake. So, any questions about the practices of Wicca may be considered oath-baiting, especially when it is asked in an insincere manner by somebody trying to "test" a Wiccan.

Here's the thing. Within the bounds of the 161 Laws, it is possible to ask and learn in order to protect oneself. I have seen what happens when people fake their position in order to rape young women under the guise of being a servant to the Wiccan Lord.

I do not know of anyone who would place outer court information at so high a price that they would allow it's ignorance to further the manipulation of those who would use Outer Court information to be a tool for such abusers.

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I don't think I made my point clear enough. The outer court's Pagan altar was set up one way during the first circle, and another way in the second circle. You can tell there's a difference, regardless of the fact that the altar and everything on it was not Wiccan.

No. You didn't make yourself clear.

However, with basic study of numerous outer court material, one would be able to ask questions and spot differences from the bat- yes?

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True enough, as a student I have often gotten "I cannot tell you that yet" in answer to a sincere question. But I am referring to rude "test" questions about Wiccan practices. When you got that answer from a Wiccan, they were being quite kind, indeed. I'm willing to admit there are kind Wiccans out there, so I believe you! Sorry if I was wrong about Wiccans keeping silent. I'll be happy to modify that to say that some of them will. smile

This again falls on the pike of "Safety", most Wiccans I have come across are more than happy to provide what they can to someone who asks an honest question due to aspects of the faith that can be used to hurt others which have been removed from context and placed into the realm of outer court material.

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Some of my statements may indeed be regionally biased. But I personally believe the above statements on oath-bating are not, since folks talk about the issue of rude Seeker behavior quite openly on the international A&J email list, and chastise those who come on the list displaying such behavior, banning those who claim to present any materials from a Wiccan BOS. Of course, all of the above are just my opinions, and are thus coloured by my own personal biases from my experiences.

Perhaps (and this is a big perhaps) my years of working in the local occult shop, my age itself and my obvious non-interest in actually being part of the faith itself and my forwardness on the subject has provided for a very different experience.  

[Doctrix]

TeaDidikai

The lineage itself is not oathbound, the names can be protected, but are not oathbound unto themselves. [...] Never heard of a Coven name being Oathbound. Cite a source on that one for me? [...] Ummmmm... the EWoE is not oath bound

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on all of the above. I certainly can't back up any of my statements with any proof, and I admit that I could be totally wrong. All I can do is say that I disagree with your statements from my experiences, and that doesn't help anyone very much! Thank you for adding your perspective. I'm sure the very fact of our disagreement helps seekers understand how complex these issues are!

TeaDidikai

It is possible to ask and learn in order to protect oneself. I have seen what happens when people fake their position in order to rape young women under the guise of being a servant to the Wiccan Lord. I do not know of anyone who would place outer court information at so high a price that they would allow it's ignorance to further the manipulation of those who would use Outer Court information to be a tool for such abusers. [...] Most Wiccans I have come across are more than happy to provide what they can to someone who asks an honest question due to aspects of the faith that can be used to hurt others which have been removed from context and placed into the realm of outer court material.

It's true that there are a lot of abusers out there, but my own experiences have led me to believe that the Wiccans aren't there to stop those (non-Wiccan) abusers, and the Wiccans don't feel that they owe uninitiated seekers any information about the craft. I know that sounds harsh, and I'm willing to be wrong about this, however, in light of these beliefs of mine, I personally feel that asking information about the craft is never an adiquate way for a seeker to protect themselves against abusers, which is why I have provided information about verifying Wiccans. Readers may choose to believe me or not, but I'm afraid I can no longer debate with you about this matter because I simply can't back up my claims. I could certainly be pulling this all out of my a** for the hell of it.

Oh well! So long! I've got an Initiation to worry about tonight! However will I pass the time? *paces excitedly*  

[TeaDidikai]

[Kudzu]

It's true that there are a lot of abusers out there, but my own experiences have led me to believe that the Wiccans aren't there to stop those (non-Wiccan) abusers, and the Wiccans don't feel that they owe uninitiated seekers any information about the craft. I know that sounds harsh, and I'm willing to be wrong about this, however, in light of these beliefs of mine, I personally feel that asking information about the craft is never an adiquate way for a seeker to protect themselves against abusers, which is why I have provided information about verifying Wiccans. Readers may choose to believe me or not, but I'm afraid I can no longer debate with you about this matter because I simply can't back up my claims. I could certainly be pulling this all out of my a** for the hell of it.

Oh well! So long! I've got an Initiation to worry about tonight! However will I pass the time? *paces excitedly*

And people wonder why Wicca has a bad rep- why it is so easy to use as a tool to violate people sexually, and mentally. stare

These aren't questions about the craft, it is about those who practice it.

Have a good initiation tonight! Best of luck.  

[Doctrix]

TeaDidikai

Kudzu

Wiccans aren't there to stop those (non-Wiccan) abusers, and the Wiccans don't feel that they owe uninitiated seekers any information about the craft. I know that sounds harsh, and I'm willing to be wrong about this, however, in light of these beliefs of mine, I personally feel that asking information about the craft is never an adiquate way for a seeker to protect themselves against abusers, which is why I have provided information about verifying Wiccans.

And people wonder why Wicca has a bad rep- why it is so easy to use as a tool to violate people sexually, and mentally.

Seekers must be very careful, and never let their guard down, because they can't count on anyone else to protect them until they have gone through the proper channels to find a group who wants to take that responsibility for them. I only post these harsh things here because I do care, and I want those Seekers who read this to be safe from abusers, so I'm telling it straight why I believe certain ways to do that are inadequate. If that means that some people will think Wiccans are fascist, meanie, poo-poo heads, so be it. They'll be safe from abusers too if they stay out of the kitchen when they can't take the heat.  

[TeaDidikai]

[Kudzu]

Seekers must be very careful, and never let their guard down, because they can't count on anyone else to protect them until they have gone through the proper channels to find a group who wants to take that responsibility for them. I only post these harsh things here because I do care, and I want those Seekers who read this to be safe from abusers, so I'm telling it straight why I believe certain ways to do that are inadequate. If that means that some people will think Wiccans are fascist, meanie, poo-poo heads, so be it. They'll be safe from abusers too if they stay out of the kitchen when they can't take the heat.

Most Wiccans I know are right bastards. That's their right. Same goes for the majority of Asatru I know as well. Again, their right.

My problem comes when an individuals secrets lead to s**t like this.

I take some comfort that the legit Wiccans involved faced civil scantions.  

[Doctrix]

TeaDidikai

My problem comes when an individuals secrets lead to s**t like this.

I'm sorry for your friend. I wish people like her attackers didn't exist. And I wish that more Seekers knew not to work with people for whom they don't get a vouch. It's situations like those that are the reasons I fight so hard to show that testing Wiccan content can't protect you enough. Seekers, if you don't get a vouch for your "Wiccan," don't work with them! What a horrible situation. I'm disgusted by what your friend had to go through.  

[TheDisreputableDog]

[Kudzu]

TeaDidikai

My problem comes when an individuals secrets lead to s**t like this.

I'm sorry for your friend. I wish people like her attackers didn't exist. And I wish that more Seekers knew not to work with people for whom they don't get a vouch. It's situations like those that are the reasons I fight so hard to show that testing Wiccan content can't protect you enough. Seekers, if you don't get a vouch for your "Wiccan," don't work with them! What a horrible situation. I'm disgusted by what your friend had to go through.

Not to put words in Tea's mouth, but I thought her point was that her friend would likely would not have gotten a vouch from anyone. If you can't even deny a sexual predator with a history of such predations within the community, why would you get a confirmation for anyone else?