Music and Magic

[Pelta]

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[TeaDidikai]

From a Slavic Recon point of view, Song is a very important thing indeed- as a great deal of mythology is actually kept as songs that survived to this day.

Within the theory of magical application, I see music as a mood enhancer, much as I understand what your selection from The Shaman suggests. Catharsis, intoxication- wonderful applications of song and music.

On the more pragmatic end, there is nothing like having a didge played directly at your chest to slam one into a grounded state, and as such is a common way to cool down from Trance Dances with those I practice with. Didge and Cold Drinking Water. Amazing.  

[Pelta]

TeaDidikai

From a Slavic Recon point of view, Song is a very important thing indeed- as a great deal of mythology is actually kept as songs that survived to this day.

I'd be interested in hearing some, if I could. Are they considered to be the original melodies? I've been interested lately in the effect of particular modes and intervals in music. As is suggested in Pythagoras' theory of the music of the spheres, each interval has a specific resonance and meaning. I've been contemplating working with that, but I don't really know where to start. My composition techniques aren't quite up to scratch, and anything built largely on a sequence of intervals may end up atonal, which would go against what Pythagoras suggested about using modes. So basically I'm wondering how it would be possible to put the theory in to practise.

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Within the theory of magical application, I see music as a mood enhancer, much as I understand what your selection from The Shaman suggests. Catharsis, intoxication- wonderful applications of song and music.

I agree that music is an excellent mood enhancer, but more what I was getting at was a more active use of music to accomplish a goal, like actually using music as a medium for spellwork. Though enhancing a mood in Trancework is an excellent application of music and rhythm... I guess I find it interesting that music and magic can be so similar yet wildly different in so many ways.

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On the more pragmatic end, there is nothing like having a didge played directly at your chest to slam one into a grounded state, and as such is a common way to cool down from Trance Dances with those I practice with. Didge and Cold Drinking Water. Amazing.

Wow. That sounds incredible! I'll have to try it some time. If it's actually possible to find a didgeridoo player in our tiny town of Dubland...
So that applies to a specific sound and instrument. It wouldn't work with say, a flute. Does that have to do with sound waves and vibrations? My physics is abysmal, but is the reason music can effect us like that stem from the effect music has on our immediate environment? And why does music have such an effect on the human brain, to make people experience enlightenment or different emotions?
This topic has intrigued and frustrated me for years. I know music has immense power, but I haven't been able to figure out how to use it to its greatest potential yet. There's so much more that could be done...  

[TeaDidikai]

missmagpie

TeaDidikai

From a Slavic Recon point of view, Song is a very important thing indeed- as a great deal of mythology is actually kept as songs that survived to this day.

I'd be interested in hearing some, if I could. Are they considered to be the original melodies? I've been interested lately in the effect of particular modes and intervals in music. As is suggested in Pythagoras' theory of the music of the spheres, each interval has a specific resonance and meaning. I've been contemplating working with that, but I don't really know where to start. My composition techniques aren't quite up to scratch, and anything built largely on a sequence of intervals may end up atonal, which would go against what Pythagoras suggested about using modes. So basically I'm wondering how it would be possible to put the theory in to practise.

Well, the best way I know how to hear them is to be at my Grandmother's house for Christmas. Koljada songs are a tradition. As for anything beyond that, I can hardly read music, so I couldn't tell you.

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I agree that music is an excellent mood enhancer, but more what I was getting at was a more active use of music to accomplish a goal, like actually using music as a medium for spellwork. Though enhancing a mood in Trancework is an excellent application of music and rhythm... I guess I find it interesting that music and magic can be so similar yet wildly different in so many ways.

Would an example of what you are speaking of be found in looping Hindu Prosperity mantra songs in order to leave them playing quietly 24/7 to bring prosperity to one's life?

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Wow. That sounds incredible! I'll have to try it some time. If it's actually possible to find a didgeridoo player in our tiny town of Dubland...
So that applies to a specific sound and instrument. It wouldn't work with say, a flute. Does that have to do with sound waves and vibrations? My physics is abysmal, but is the reason music can effect us like that stem from the effect music has on our immediate environment? And why does music have such an effect on the human brain, to make people experience enlightenment or different emotions?
This topic has intrigued and frustrated me for years. I know music has immense power, but I haven't been able to figure out how to use it to its greatest potential yet. There's so much more that could be done...

For me, I do not think a flute would work. The low vibrations of the didge are what help me. Flutes resonate too high and too quickly for the same effect- for me.

Oh- have you though about using those singing bowls? They are wonderful as well.  

[Pelta]

TeaDidikai

Well, the best way I know how to hear them is to be at my Grandmother's house for Christmas. Koljada songs are a tradition. As for anything beyond that, I can hardly read music, so I couldn't tell you.

See, I think that's partially what's behind people not using music in magic as much. No offense to you or anything, but many people these days just don't see the allure of Classical and Traditional music and thus never learn to read or play a classical instrument. I think to use something you need to understand it, so to use music in magic to the best of one's ability you need to study music as well. But then again, I'm a huge classical music elitist snob. I've played an instrument for the past fourteen years and study music theory. It's hard for me to look at it from the perspective of someone who hasn't.

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Would an example of what you are speaking of be found in looping Hindu Prosperity mantra songs in order to leave them playing quietly 24/7 to bring prosperity to one's life?

Yes, that would be a good example. Personally, I have an aversion to music being played as "background" music. I much prefer to be in the music and part of it, even just as actively listening. I love the performing aspect of music. I thought about things along those lines and considered writing songs I could sing for specific functions, though I lack the background of a chordal instrument so the melody alone would be rather empty. I might give it a shot though... when i can sing again stare .
What are these Hindu Mantras and do you know where I could possibly find transcripts of them?

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It wouldn't work with say, a flute.

For me, I do not think a flute would work. The low vibrations of the didge are what help me. Flutes resonate too high and too quickly for the same effect- for me.

Oh I agree. I wouldn't be able to use a flute for grounding unless I wrote something entirely in long notes and in the lowest four notes of its register. And even then it wouldn't be nearly as effective as a didgeridoo. But I wonder... Why is that?

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Oh- have you though about using those singing bowls? They are wonderful as well.

I tried one once and couldn't get it to work. The sound off of them (when someone can use them) is incredible. I'll give it a shot if I can find one. Again, limited availability though. Dublin is kinda small and I can't think of any shops that would sell them. Thanks for the idea though! biggrin  

[TeaDidikai]

I play the bowed psaltery, but mostly by rote. No one has ever taken the time to teach me a formal understanding of music and most written sources I have picked up assume a level of understanding I do not have. Frustration.

I disagree with your stance on background music. The merits are numerous.
For one, the subtle unconscious awareness of the selected pieces may do more to alter the mind frame than the music as a centerpiece might. Another- if in situations where the magic being done is designed to be intergraded into daily life, having a background presence could be seen as a place holder or energetic magnet to draw such into one's life. Prosperity Mantras in this case to draw money- or what about the instrumental love songs whose lyrics you are very familiar with being used as a low level love spell?

Singing is a bird of a different color- lyrics when done well can make for powerful spells. All Shall Be Well by my friend Lydia made for a great protection spell, and Wild Mountain Thyme was key in one of my youthful love spells.

As for the Mantras- I'd have to look into it for you. The CD was a gift.

As for the flute v. Didge, I'd suggest it has to do with the pitch and vibration rate. A flute- or even whistling to kick up higher energy (OCW Air associations perhaps?) makes a lot of sense.

As for the bowls- eBay is your friend!  

[Pelta]

TeaDidikai

I play the bowed psaltery, but mostly by rote. No one has ever taken the time to teach me a formal understanding of music and most written sources I have picked up assume a level of understanding I do not have. Frustration.

Oooh... That's really interesting. I don't know anyone who plays the psaltry... I didn't even know you could still get them. Do you use gut strings?
And myself and many other classical musicians put too much stock in written music and theory. A lot of traditional music is passed on entirely aurally, and I've known excellent musicians who play fantastic Irish music without having ever read a note of music and who don't even know what key they're playing in.

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I disagree with your stance on background music. The merits are numerous.

Ok I see where you're coming from. I actually hadn't thought of it that way. When music is playing it's very distracting for me, and I generally just have to listen to it. For example, I can't have music playing while I read because I'll end up not paying attention to the book. I guess I just don't understand the concept of background music. Having something playing on loop for a specific purpose is actually a really good idea. The problem for me would be finding something suitable.

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Singing is a bird of a different color- lyrics when done well can make for powerful spells.

One of my biggest problems with sung spells is that I'd have to write them, and I don't quite have enough confidence in my composition abilities. But then again, I may just be too critical of myself. Then there's the question of the melody - whether it's suited to the purpose or not and can I actually sing it. I also find voice alone to be rather empty. In my ear it needs some sort of chordal backup, which is a problem since my piano skills stink and I detest the guitar. I'll give it a go, though. I'm actually interested in trying a spell/song now just to see how it will turn out. Thanks for all these great ideas!

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As for the flute v. Didge, I'd suggest it has to do with the pitch and vibration rate. A flute- or even whistling to kick up higher energy (OCW Air associations perhaps?) makes a lot of sense.

I remember reading somewhere in one of my fluffier, Cunningham books, to play on a flute to invoke the element of Air. He was saying to do so for intellect: When you're feeling stupid, play the flute! Then go back to what you were doing and you'll be smarter! (paraphrase) Sounded really silly to me, but Air associations with motion and energy in flute playing make much more sense. The flute has a very vibrant sound and I can see how it could energise and stir things into motion (unless you're playing it. That's a different story. Playing the flute properly is exhausting. That energy has to come from somewhere...). But do you think that there's power and meaning to the melody of a piece as well, or is it in the instruments and sound thereof?

Hmmm.... *runs off with pen and paper to write a song*  

[TeaDidikai]

missmagpie

Oooh... That's really interesting. I don't know anyone who plays the psaltry... I didn't even know you could still get them. Do you use gut strings?

Not gut, not at the moment at least. Can't afford the nice ones and low quality gut can be heard.

My main one is a family heirloom, but you can get them.

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And myself and many other classical musicians put too much stock in written music and theory. A lot of traditional music is passed on entirely aurally, and I've known excellent musicians who play fantastic Irish music without having ever read a note of music and who don't even know what key they're playing in.

I wish I had such insight. It's on the list of things to learn.

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Ok I see where you're coming from. I actually hadn't thought of it that way. When music is playing it's very distracting for me, and I generally just have to listen to it. For example, I can't have music playing while I read because I'll end up not paying attention to the book. I guess I just don't understand the concept of background music. Having something playing on loop for a specific purpose is actually a really good idea. The problem for me would be finding something suitable.

I find that unless the lyrics fit perfectly with the music, background music can be distracting. Careful selection would be important, but I guess I tended to think of that as a given.

Also, would you want a song that you were so familiar with that the unconscious reorganization and mental insertion of lyrics was part of the magic, or would you want to have the resonating lyrics bouncing off the wall for the magic?

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One of my biggest problems with sung spells is that I'd have to write them, and I don't quite have enough confidence in my composition abilities.

Why? I think Waiting Wishing under the right cercumstances would be great for a love spell. Think about the favorite songs that identify with you the most- ask yourself why and then see if you can use that compadibility to further the magic.

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But then again, I may just be too critical of myself. Then there's the question of the melody - whether it's suited to the purpose or not and can I actually sing it. I also find voice alone to be rather empty. In my ear it needs some sort of chordal backup, which is a problem since my piano skills stink and I detest the guitar. I'll give it a go, though. I'm actually interested in trying a spell/song now just to see how it will turn out. Thanks for all these great ideas!

A pleasure. Ever listen to a song and you got the feeling that the person who wrote it was penning it for you? That is the kind of music I use in my spells.

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As for the flute v. Didge, I'd suggest it has to do with the pitch and vibration rate. A flute- or even whistling to kick up higher energy (OCW Air associations perhaps?) makes a lot of sense.

I remember reading somewhere in one of my fluffier, Cunningham books, to play on a flute to invoke the element of Air. He was saying to do so for intellect: When you're feeling stupid, play the flute! Then go back to what you were doing and you'll be smarter! (paraphrase) Sounded really silly to me, but Air associations with motion and energy in flute playing make much more sense. The flute has a very vibrant sound and I can see how it could energise and stir things into motion (unless you're playing it. That's a different story. Playing the flute properly is exhausting. That energy has to come from somewhere...). Might be where I got that association from actually.

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But do you think that there's power and meaning to the melody of a piece as well, or is it in the instruments and sound thereof?

Hmmm.... *runs off with pen and paper to write a song*

Yes. 3nodding wink  

[TheDisreputableDog]

TeaDidikai

A pleasure. Ever listen to a song and you got the feeling that the person who wrote it was penning it for you? That is the kind of music I use in my spells.

Interesting. Does it still count if you get the feeling it was written for someone you know?  

[TeaDidikai]

TheDisreputableDog

TeaDidikai

A pleasure. Ever listen to a song and you got the feeling that the person who wrote it was penning it for you? That is the kind of music I use in my spells.

Interesting. Does it still count if you get the feeling it was written for someone you know?

Depends on the nature of the spell I guess.  

[Pelta]

TeaDidikai

missmagpie

And myself and many other classical musicians put too much stock in written music and theory. A lot of traditional music is passed on entirely aurally, and I've known excellent musicians who play fantastic Irish music without having ever read a note of music and who don't even know what key they're playing in.

I wish I had such insight. It's on the list of things to learn.

If you ever come to Ireland I can give you a crash course in basic music theory. Hell, I could probably write one up for you if you like. What would you like to know?

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Also, would you want a song that you were so familiar with that the unconscious reorganization and mental insertion of lyrics was part of the magic, or would you want to have the resonating lyrics bouncing off the wall for the magic?

Interesting question. I would hope that if I were using the song at all I'd know it inside out to make sure that it was exactly what I needed for the purpose. But I find when I know a song too well I'll end up just singing it in my head and not really listening to it, whereas if I don't know something I'll listen to it closely. It would probably depend on how I was using the song. If it were something very active and I wanted to take part I could sing along/dance/whatever and add that to the song/spell. But perhaps if the purpose were more passive I'd try to listen and reflect on the music. One way brings things out of the music, the other focuses in on the music. Both could work very well, but would have different effects.

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One of my biggest problems with sung spells is that I'd have to write them, and I don't quite have enough confidence in my composition abilities.

Why? I think Waiting Wishing under the right cercumstances would be great for a love spell. Think about the favorite songs that identify with you the most- ask yourself why and then see if you can use that compadibility to further the magic.

Although many songs I listen to could probably be used to some extent, there's always the factor that they will never fit perfectly to a situation. I listen to a lot of The Beatles, and a lot of their love songs really resonate with me. But they each involve different circumstances which will never be quite the same as my own and what I need. The only way I can be assured to be entirely accurate is to write my own. The effort and thought that goes into writing the song would also add to its power, as well as the fact that it would be my creation, specifically for use by me. Much like a tool.
There's also the slight problem that if I chose one of my favorite songs to use for a spell, every subsequent time I listened to it I'd harken back to what it was used for. It might add more power to what I accomplished, but what if I didn't want to? What if I just wanted to listen to that song again the way it used to be?  

[TeaDidikai]

missmagpie

If you ever come to Ireland I can give you a crash course in basic music theory. Hell, I could probably write one up for you if you like. What would you like to know?

sweatdrop Everything? The only reason I can tell a whole note from a sharp/flat is that they are on different sides of the psaltery.

I play by rote. My friend takes sheet music, and note by note teaches me the pattern I am to bow, and my intuition fails me when it comes to having a basic understanding of how and why music works.

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Interesting question. I would hope that if I were using the song at all I'd know it inside out to make sure that it was exactly what I needed for the purpose.

That would be important. Finding the perfect song would be a must.

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But I find when I know a song too well I'll end up just singing it in my head and not really listening to it, whereas if I don't know something I'll listen to it closely. It would probably depend on how I was using the song. If it were something very active and I wanted to take part I could sing along/dance/whatever and add that to the song/spell.

I see there as being two ways to go. Have music enhance the spell in the background, or have the music be the spell and allow the power of you singing along combined with the visualization of who you are singing to with what you are singing about blend together in a motion based meditation.

Neat huh?

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But perhaps if the purpose were more passive I'd try to listen and reflect on the music. One way brings things out of the music, the other focuses in on the music. Both could work very well, but would have different effects.

Indeed.

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Although many songs I listen to could probably be used to some extent, there's always the factor that they will never fit perfectly to a situation. I listen to a lot of The Beatles, and a lot of their love songs really resonate with me. But they each involve different circumstances which will never be quite the same as my own and what I need. The only way I can be assured to be entirely accurate is to write my own. The effort and thought that goes into writing the song would also add to its power, as well as the fact that it would be my creation, specifically for use by me. Much like a tool.

Very true. You're lucky. I would kill to be able to write music and lyrics.

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There's also the slight problem that if I chose one of my favorite songs to use for a spell, every subsequent time I listened to it I'd harken back to what it was used for. It might add more power to what I accomplished, but what if I didn't want to? What if I just wanted to listen to that song again the way it used to be?

Yes and no. That's what grounding the spell afterwards is for. After all, I'll assume that if you had pretty alter tools (wands, silver chalices etc) one would not throw them away after one use, yes?  

[Pelta]

TeaDidikai

missmagpie

If you ever come to Ireland I can give you a crash course in basic music theory. Hell, I could probably write one up for you if you like. What would you like to know?

sweatdrop Everything? The only reason I can tell a whole note from a sharp/flat is that they are on different sides of the psaltery.

I'll get going on that for you. I won't be able to teach you anything about the psaltery (strings are not my forte), but I can try to teach you the basics of notation and music theory. It might take a while for me to put it together, but I'll see what I can do mrgreen .

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I see there as being two ways to go. Have music enhance the spell in the background, or have the music be the spell and allow the power of you singing along combined with the visualization of who you are singing to with what you are singing about blend together in a motion based meditation.

Oooooooh.... Now that is cool. A mix of dance, music, singing and magic. That could be one hell of a powerful combination....

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Neat huh?

Yes. Very.

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There's also the slight problem that if I chose one of my favorite songs to use for a spell, every subsequent time I listened to it I'd harken back to what it was used for. It might add more power to what I accomplished, but what if I didn't want to? What if I just wanted to listen to that song again the way it used to be?

Yes and no. That's what grounding the spell afterwards is for. After all, I'll assume that if you had pretty alter tools (wands, silver chalices etc) one would not throw them away after one use, yes?

True, but if you had pretty altar tools like chalices and knives and such, you wouldn't use them to eat your dinner. They would probably be kept sacred and revered to preserve their energy and psychodrama. If I wanted to go back to just listening to the song again like I usually would, it would be somewhat similar to using an athame to cut steak at dinner. You get my drift?

Other thoughts I've had on the subject: It occured to me in the shower today (ah the revelations one has in the shower) that the song "Under my Thumb" by the Rolling Stones could be used as an excellent domination spell/song. I probably wouldn't use it, but it's just one of those songs that fits perfectly to the desired effect. Several Beatles songs could be used as love spells. The one thing I noticed about both options, though, is that they are directed at women. They use "she" and "her". What if I wanted to cast the spell on a man? That would make most of my best choices of songs unusable. It could work if I sang along and changed all the pronouns, but not if I was using the song for its literal meaning.  

[Sivirs]

missmagpie

Other thoughts I've had on the subject: It occured to me in the shower today (ah the revelations one has in the shower) that the song "Under my Thumb" by the Rolling Stones could be used as an excellent domination spell/song.

Unto Ashes' "Serve Me" comes to mind, and it's gender-neutral and from the POV of the singer (or caster, in this case). 3nodding

I haven't thought to use it in any spell stuff, and probably never will (honestly? most people are weak-willed enough that I don't need spells), but it's fun to consider in a hypothetical way.  

[MST3Kakalina]

The only song I've come across so far to perfectly apply to me in a magical situation is Godsmack's "I ******** Hate You." whee Considering how effective that was, I'm beginning to consider incorporating music more in magical work.

I have had some rather interesting experiences with just general dancing, too. Anything with enough of a beat (because I'll listen to anything--metal, techno, classical, rock, oldies, anything) is enough to get me up and dancing around. I haven't done anything to the point of falling into trance or raising/sending energy yet, but yeah, obvious answer of dancing and trancing FTW. xp