Dealing with Parental Units

[CuAnnan]

Right, this is a thread specifically designed for people coming to pagan paths who are still unfortunate enough to be under the legal age of existance. In Ireland, America, England and most countries I've been in communique with, this age is 18. Any time you see the age 18 and it conflicts with your country's age, just substitute instead of correcting me. Let's not get caught up in useless semanticism here.

So... your parents/legal-gaurdians have forbidden you from practicing your pagan path. What can you do? My honest and genuine advice, as a pagan, is to respect their wishes. You are a child in their eyes (and probably always will be) and in the eyes of the law. This puts you in the position of having no power.

If you're not willing to do this, then take off the pentagram, put away your altar, stop using your tarot cards and remove all external manifestations of your paganism for a full year and a day, 12 months and a day, four seasons and a day or 366.244 days, whichever is shortest. During this year and a day, honour the Gods in your heart, mind and (most importantly) actions.

Why are you doing this? Well three reasons really.

Firstly, if you can't respect your parents wishes because they contradict what you want to do, then how do you know you'll be able to hear when the Gods are telling you to do something that contradicts what you want to do? This is a very important question, as building up personal relationships with the Gods is a difficult task and Their voices are not as clear as your parents'.

Secondly, and possibly more important in the short term, it shows your parents that you are capable of behaving like a mature responsible reasonable adult. Calmly and quitely, without at any point in time getting emotional, tell them what you believe and that you respect their beliefs and the sheer amount of effort involved in raising a child and will not manifest your faith outwardly without their consent.

Thirdly, and possibly most important in the long term, it proves that you actually believe. Consider it a test of faith. You should be able to make your temple in your own mind, where it is with you always. Your tools were given to you at birth. All outward manifestations are just props and crutches. This is an important and invaluable lesson.

I accept that parents can be infuriating, they don't listen and they always think they know what's best (which is because they've spent most of your life knowing what's best for you). You have to remember that they sacraficed a great deal so that you can exist and that they're people too.  

[MST3Kakalina]

Also, what good does it do to get all uppity about oh noes being repressed! if after a [insert appropriate timespan here] you decide that paganism isn't really your calling? Then you look doubly immature and childish, playing right into the "it's just a phase" stereotype.

Yay for this thread.

ETA: I really think this should be stickied, given the age of the typical Gaian who would be looking for a pagan board.  

[Starlock]

(claps) Well said, RB.  

[Lotus Poem]

Thank you Reagun I've rarely heard it put better. smile

What good does it do if you start lieing and sneaking around and hiding things from your parents anyway? It only proves to them that Paganism is a bad influence on you and reinforces all their negative feelings and fears about Paganism.  

[TeaDidikai]

[ Message temporarily off-line ]  

[CuAnnan]

TeaDidikai

...Emancipation info dump...

Only works in America pet.
In Ireland and England, parents/legal gaurdians are legally responsible for their children until they turn 18.  

[Gingerbread . Coffin]

[ Message temporarily off-line ]  

[Memento Mortalis Es]

Okay, as a teenager who has witnessed my friends' horrible parents, I seriously object to the concept of inherent parental wisdom. Just because a person is a parent doesn't mean their judgement is good, or that the rules (or lack thereof) they enforce upon their children are what's best. One mother of a friend of mine has left a sick 9-year-old home with nobody but her 12-year-old sister to take care of the poor kid. I know a girl who has to hide her Wiccan beliefs from her parents so she doesn't get beaten even more. There are very good reasons to hide this path from the parentals, and acting like "parent=wise" is just wrong.  

[LadyEladrin]

While I agree that parents aren't automatically founts out wisdome and know every little thing that is best for you or your siblings, Reagun makes an excellent post and points. Of course, Reagun's post only applies in areas where the parents ARE intelligent, mature beings. If your parents AREN'T, then its' up to YOU to show them that you are a mature responsible adult and that you know what you're doing with your life. If that means you continue to practise, go for it. However, in the case of parents=retarted child abusing bastards, there are better alternatives, like reporting them to Children's Aid (or whatever).

If your parents are normally supportive, loving and mature, I'd go with Reagun's suggestions.  

[TeaDidikai]

Gingerbread . Coffin

TeaDidikai

I would like to offer an alternative.

This will not work for the majority of minors out there. It is for a very very small minority and is not to be entered lightly. It if is right for you, there will likely be situations outside of faith- numerous contributing factors that take you there.

Emancipation, and all the prerequisites there of, does exist, and is a viable option.

I know you've said this isn't for everyone, but...

Why would you even plant that in someone's head?

Because it exists. Because it is a legit optian. Because for some people- a very small number of individuals- it is needed.

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The idea of being emancipated is more taxing than you can believe.

No it's not. I was Emancipated at age 16 by court order, Living as though I were from age 15.

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As someone whose seen it first hand in their family -- it's just too much. A teenagers religious standpoint will likely change and family problems, other than abuse, will eventually be resolved or fade from the foreground as the teen ages.

I bolded the part of my statement that addresses this point for you. Sorry it was so rought for you and yours, but for others it is a blessing. Try to be objective please.

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The first one is bull, that's why it's rare. If a 17 year old has a job that'll rake in enough money for them to live in their own house, pay their own bills, buy their own food, and still go to school then they should just go ahead and wait it out until they turn 18 and avoid all the drama. confused

Because psychological, physical and emotional abuse need not be suffered because other members of the family do not want to "deal with the drama". Sorry.

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And actually, the most common is when a child is over the age of 16, runs away without being found by the police or the parents and after a 6 month period, the child can support themselves according to the courts standards, they get emancipated.

Back door Emancipation. I wasn't offering it because in some places the law doesn't work that way- and can in fact, land the minor in juvie.

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Again, I have to ask, why would you even plant that in someone's head? A teenagers religion should have little baring on making such a freakin' drastic move.

Almost everyone I know who has been emancipated moves in with someone else -- be it a relative, a close friend's family or what have you. They just move from one set of rules to another set of rules. confused

I'll be blunt- Sucks that it hurt you. I thank the gods that it saved me in the ways that it did. Some people need to live on their own, and if it is a base need of yours, and you can work within the law to meet those needs, more power to you. I'll be honest- in the State I was Emancipated in, I had to be earning 120% above the poverty line, I needed to be enrolled in school working towards graduation, I had to find a co-signer on a lease, provide proof of transportation, a list of emergancy contacts, prove health insurance greater or equal to that which was provided within my household, and list a reason for being emancipated supported with a LoR from a court appointed case worker... the list goes on.

It's damn arrogent of you to condemn it just because you had a bad experience with it.

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Reagun stated the best option,

Agreed.

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the absolute worst would be emancipation.

Bullshit. Being beaten with the buckle end of a leather belt for saying a prayer in the privacy of your own room to a goddess who stands for strength and honesty and taking it would be the worst.  

[Lotus Poem]

I would not say emancipation is the worst choice. It's definitely not for everyone but I felt that was made very clear in the post. I happen to know two girls right now considering emancipation if we can't get legal guardianship of them before they turn 18. Their reasons are far more than religious, but religion is a factor. I have had several lawyers describe to me in grueling detail what it takes for them to get emancipated (or for us to prove the parents unfit) and i can assure you that as bad as that sounds I'd rather go through that than sit around waiting to get a call that my 12 year old sister in law is in the hospital again because of the freaks she lives with.  

[CuAnnan]

I REALLY object to your tone Manhattan.

Manhattan

Okay, as a teenager who has witnessed my friends' horrible parents, I seriously object to the concept of inherent parental wisdom.

Good for you. Would you mind pointing out where I stated, implied or even glanced over that idea? This isn't about dealing with wise parents, it's about dealing with rational parents. If you can't decide whether or not my advice is going to do any good with your parents, you have no ******** business playing with the forces of nature and if your mental cognitive abilities are so poor that you can't make this judgement call, that's all you'll be doing in your path.
So excuse me for not handing the secrets to good interpersonal relationships to everyone on a ******** plate, I'm only ******** human.

Manhattan

Just because a person is a parent doesn't mean their judgement is good, or that the rules (or lack thereof) they enforce upon their children are what's best.

Doesn't matter what's best. The parents don't have to be right. Until you turn 18, you belong to them. I was just offering advice on how to make that bondage easier.

Manhattan

One mother of a friend of mine has left a sick 9-year-old home with nobody but her 12-year-old sister to take care of the poor kid.

All this proves is that some people suck more than others.

Manhattan

I know a girl who has to hide her Wiccan beliefs from her parents so she doesn't get beaten even more.

This is PRFG, not CB. Her beliefs based (probably loosely) on outer court Wiccan material do not equate to Wiccan beliefs, if you please (since we're being all angsty, hostile and nit-picky here).

Manhattan

There are very good reasons to hide this path from the parentals, and acting like "parent=wise" is just wrong.

You know what, though? She should be in care. This case has nothing at all to do with the topic on hand and should you want to discuss it further, I suggest you start an "Abusive parents" thread in life issues.

This may not be M&R, but some semblance of on-topicness is needed.  

[Gingerbread . Coffin]

TeaDidikai

Response

I can just see some teeny bopper pagan totally skipping over that "it's not for everyone" when their lives are pretty normal and their family functions pretty nice other than that one bit, and trying to get emancipated.

Because I've seen it happen. A girl I went to high school with "couldn't take" the "oh so horrible" way she was treated for being a "Wiccan", because her parents made her go to church. And she ran away. And six months later, she got emancipated. And four years later, she's still working at the Waffle House with two kids and she's totally forgot about being Wiccan. I can actually think of a couple of different people I knew growing up that got emancipated for dumb reasons.

I meant, taxing on the rest of the family, if your family is or was close at all. I dunno if you know how it feels to lose a sister and your best friend after sitting in the waiting room of a court house for an hour and a half. neutral My sister, at the time, was into paganism, on the feminist-Dianic side. It had little or nothing to do with her getting emancipated. We shared a room and I didn't even know she was into to it until she was moving out at 15.

I don't know of the average teenager getting a boot to the head all that often from their parents. I don't know of too many people getting out right abused because of their faith. I know it happens, I've seen it happen, but I seriously doubt a majority of teens have that problem.

If you've been smacked across the face with the angry end of a belt, yes, you should get out. My remaining siblings and I spent a year in a foster home because of abuse, because right then, and the years leading up to that, my parents weren't safe. If you're getting abused, it's an ice cubes chance in hell before I will tell you to stay. Abuse is abuse, period, regardless of your religion.

In the context of the first post, it was geared towards the average teenage pagan, whose parents just plain don't like it. It might've been the "cause" or one of the causes in your case of why your parents hurt you. Abuse is abuse, period. Emancipation is a-okay in my book if they are getting hurt at home and can survive on their own.

With your first post on the matter, you gave one little hint on the physical or mental abuse or whatever other factors you'd like to throw out there. One. You should leave home early if it's not safe for you, not because the evil Christians that are your parents say no to your tarot. And pretty sure you don't mean it like that, but keep in mind, this is a guild for "fluffy bunny rehabilitation". I'm pretty sure that there's teens in this guild that will just skip over that "other situations" and go right into court so they can be uninterupted with their spiritual plans and go on to try to rip up their family. Your first post just made the whole thing sound to flippant.  

[TeaDidikai]

Gingerbread . Coffin

TeaDidikai

Response

I can just see some teeny bopper pagan totally skipping over that "it's not for everyone" when their lives are pretty normal and their family functions pretty nice other than that one bit, and trying to get emancipated.

And you know what? If it isn't right for them, they'll learn that soon enough.

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Because I've seen it happen. A girl I went to high school with "couldn't take" the "oh so horrible" way she was treated for being a "Wiccan", because her parents made her go to church. And she ran away. And six months later, she got emancipated. And four years later, she's still working at the Waffle House with two kids and she's totally forgot about being Wiccan. I can actually think of a couple of different people I knew growing up that got emancipated for dumb reasons.

And you know 100% of the story, do you?

By the way, working a minimum wage job with two kids is not the worst thing in the world, and for all you know, she could have ended up far worse had she stayed.

Bottom line- It's NOT RIGHT for EVERYONE, but you aren't the one who sets policy for 100% of the minors in the world.

It saved my life. I would not be typing this today had I not left home when I did, and you are painting with too broad a brush.

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I meant, taxing on the rest of the family, if your family is or was close at all. I dunno if you know how it feels to lose a sister and your best friend after sitting in the waiting room of a court house for an hour and a half. neutral My sister, at the time, was into paganism, on the feminist-Dianic side. It had little or nothing to do with her getting emancipated. We shared a room and I didn't even know she was into to it until she was moving out at 15.

Which I addressed. It sucks, I never said it didn't. However, if your sister needed to do it for her own health, while you are entitled to feel hurt, it's arrogent to condemn me for even suggesting it just because you didn't have a pleasent experience.

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I don't know of the average teenager getting a boot to the head all that often from their parents. I don't know of too many people getting out right abused because of their faith. I know it happens, I've seen it happen, but I seriously doubt a majority of teens have that problem.

Which means you have a biased sample. Just because you don't know about it, doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Furthermore- as I pointed out, there is more than one factor- more than just a difference of faith that could lead to emancipation.

And you know what? I don't care if some angst-muffin seeks emancipation and ignores 99% of the warnings I issued on the subject. It's their life and if they actually are emancipated- then they live with it. It's not your job or my job to shelter them from a legit option because of personal bias.

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In the context of the first post, it was geared towards the average teenage pagan, whose parents just plain don't like it. It might've been the "cause" or one of the causes in your case of why your parents hurt you. Abuse is abuse, period. Emancipation is a-okay in my book if they are getting hurt at home and can survive on their own.

Being an individual is okay- regardless of what leads you to take that step if you are willing to do so.

Even without violence in my home, I likely would have done it. There are personality conflicts in my family that you- an outsider with no understanding of the situation, can even begin to grasp. And shock! I'm not the only one in the world. You don't know what is best for everyone. I offered a legal alternitive to what Reagun suggested. I pointed out how valid his position was, but the fact it is not the only one.

Stop acting like you have a Psych degree, a Social Health degree and years of feild work.

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With your first post on the matter, you gave one little hint on the physical or mental abuse or whatever other factors you'd like to throw out there.

Because it is NONE of your buisness.

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One. You should leave home early if it's not safe for you, not because the evil Christians that are your parents say no to your tarot. And pretty sure you don't mean it like that, but keep in mind, this is a guild for "fluffy bunny rehabilitation". I'm pretty sure that there's teens in this guild that will just skip over that "other situations" and go right into court so they can be uninterupted with their spiritual plans and go on to try to rip up their family. Your first post just made the whole thing sound to flippant.

You're putting words in my mouth. Kindly stop it.

If a random angst-muffin wants to try and get emancipated, and they have the strength and will and call to do so for religious reasons, more power to them. Life is hard, the process sucks, and if they make it, so be it. I'm not here to censor and to protect people. Neither are you.  

[saint dreya]

Gingerbread . Coffin

TeaDidikai

Response

I can just see some teeny bopper pagan totally skipping over that "it's not for everyone" when their lives are pretty normal and their family functions pretty nice other than that one bit, and trying to get emancipated.

and what about those people who might perchance see this and be going through hell? if Tea had not posted, they might not have known about legal emancipation. she never said it to those who were just going through a 'phase' and mommy and daddy (or whatever parental figures) didn't like it. she didn't say 'oh hey, mom and dad don't understand you, but i do, so do this'.

she said that it wasn't for everyone and that one must not enter lightly. the same warnings that people post about their religions, but low and behold, you're debating in a guild to educate fluffies.

note also, that if someone with a completely normal or harmonious life, aside from the angsty 'my parent(s) doesn't(don't) understand me' tries for an emancipation, they better damn well be able to hoof it better than their current guardians. i believe the law requires that. so, if it's a decent life, with no endangerment posed by the parents, even the angsty teen with a huge persecution complex will find it awfully hard to convince a judge of the 'ebilness' of his or her parent(s).

Tea stated a disclaimer when she offered her bit. she bolded it for you. she hasn't approached it at all flippant.