Definition of Pagan

[LadyEladrin]

According to the Pagan Pride Day website, a Pagan is defined as the following:

A Pagan or NeoPagan is someone who self-identifies as a Pagan, and whose spiritual or religious practice or belief fits into one or more of the following categories:

Honoring, revering, or worshipping a Deity or Deities found in pre-Christian, classical, aboriginal, or tribal mythology;

and/or Practicing religion or spirituality based upon shamanism, shamanic, or magickal practices;

and/or Creating new religion based on past Pagan religions and/or futuristic views of society, community, and/or ecology;

and/or Focusing religious or spiritual attention primarily on the Divine Feminine.

I have no problems with this definition. However, some may. We've had some rather heated discussion on the boards as to whether this definition is alright, especially when it comes to Satanists (some argue they're in there, others don't) but that's neither here nor there. What I want to know is what do you, oh learned members of the Guild, think of this definition? Does it need work? Something put in? Taken out? I'd like to get your opinions. ^^  

[ProfessorZed]

I'm rather fond of it, actually. It seems to take a lot in while establishing definite boundaries.  

[Starlock]

Overall a good definition, but I've got a couple points to make.

My biggest gripe with it that I think needs serious revision is that it construes Paganism and Neopaganism as synonymous terms, which they technically are not. My other issues with the definition are more for simplicity of words.

For instance, it is easier to boil down Neopaganism by using religious terminology instead of giving odd examples as is done here. Three words: polytheism, pantheism, animism.

I am a bit confused as to what they mean by "creating new religions based on futuristic views of society, community, and/or ecology" because I really don't think that falls under Neopaganism in itself. By that, every progressive new religion would be considered Neopagan.  

[TeaDidikai]

I am so late in posting to this... but hey.

EladrinStarmist

A Pagan or NeoPagan is someone who self-identifies as a Pagan, and whose spiritual or religious practice or belief fits into one or more of the following categories:

My first problem- "Self Identifies" is pretty meaningless. The point of language is to communicate an idea. I officially "self identify" as a cocker spaniel. No- I'm not a quadruped. No I don't care of the historical use of the word has nothing to do with self identification. I'm a cocker spaniel and that's that.

Quote:

Honoring, revering, or worshipping a Deity or Deities found in pre-Christian, classical, aboriginal, or tribal mythology;

First stopping point. By that, Jews could be pagan.

Quote:

and/or Practicing religion or spirituality based upon shamanism, shamanic, or magickal practices;

Having read the Apostles Creed and the creeds that spawned it- Christianity is one hell of a Neo-Pagan religion.

Quote:

and/or Creating new religion based on past Pagan religions and/or futuristic views of society, community, and/or ecology;

~looks left. Looks right~ Past Pagan religions? Heh... the dual accounts of creation in Genesis with a word to describe a host of gods within the first account, the use of Lilith, ha-satan, and a host of other spirits from Middle Eastern "non-YHVH" based faiths?

Quote:

and/or Focusing religious or spiritual attention primarily on the Divine Feminine.

Which just makes me twitch. But then, there are people who view YHVH as a woman.

To be blunt, I find it to be a broken definition.
Pagan, in the sense of an exclusive term, over an inclusive term makes far more sense.  

[crystal_raye]

My only real problem was the "self-identifies" part. Just becuase you say you are something doesn't mean you actually are.  

[LadyEladrin]

Yeah, the self-identifies thing would bug me too, except for the AND part in there... "and whose spiritual or religious practice or belief fits into one or more of the following categories: ..." You can't just say "I'm a Pagan!" and not back it up with anything. You have to follow one of those other guidelines in there as well. OTHER than that, I think it's just grand.  

[Gideon Starorzewski]

Sounds to me like adding "Non-Abrahamic" would be a good idea.  

[Gingerbread . Coffin]

I think a pretty good basic definition of a Pagan is anyone whose not a member of "The Great Five Religions" (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddism). o _o; That would include Satanists, Agnostics and Atheists, but it's what most dictionaries I've looked up the term from would agree on (some including Hinduism and Buddism as pagan religions xp )

On "Self-Identitifies":
"Imma witch and I gon putz a spel on j00"

Even adding "Non-Abrahamic" and "Nature based" probably wouldn't do too much for it. There's of course, Christian Pagans. And on a historical side, early Christians were noted to worship and pray to the sun on the steps of St. Peter's.  

[TeaDidikai]

I keep it simple: Anyone who is not a heretic of every one of the Abrahamic religions, as well as a member of a Non-Abrahamic religion.

That pretty much places people like Tsuzuki clearly out of Paganism, along with the Gnostics and what not, while keeping all of the other religions firmly within the realm of paganism.  

[TheDisreputableDog]

Gingerbread . Coffin

There's of course, Christian Pagans.

"Christian Pagans" strikes me as kind of an oxymoron. Is it? (I don't mean someone who has respect for his upbringing and his family's religion, or someone who is forced to go to church until she can get out of the house and hates it.)

TeaDidikai

That pretty much places people like Tsuzuki clearly out of Paganism

I wonder, does Tsuzuki consider himself pagan? Chaos Magic doesn't seem to really...I mean, saying you're a Christian Chaos Mage is like saying you're a Christian accountant, almost, right? Or is he hermetic?

confused Gosh. I need to take a break and look more of this stuff up; also remember better what people are. Apologies. sweatdrop I'm not myself this week.  

[Gingerbread . Coffin]

TheDisreputableDog

"Christian Pagans" strikes me as kind of an oxymoron. Is it?

It's like the mixed bisexual babe that doesn't know which way to go...  

[Gideon Starorzewski]

TheDisreputableDog

I wonder, does Tsuzuki consider himself pagan? Chaos Magic doesn't seem to really...I mean, saying you're a Christian Chaos Mage is like saying you're a Christian accountant, almost, right? Or is he hermetic?

confused Gosh. I need to take a break and look more of this stuff up; also remember better what people are. Apologies. sweatdrop I'm not myself this week.

I'll let him answer for himself, but IIRC he has been known to change paradigms. I think the best way to go about determining if a Chaos Magician is a pagan or not isn't to make the judgement based on Chaos magic, but by whatever paradigm they're using.  

[Orion-Blacknuckle]

So far, none of these definitions really seem to help define the word 'Pagan' at all. Paganism is such a wide-spread and diverse belief that it can't be pinned down so easily. Is it just someone who believes in magic? Probably not, because I'm sure there are Jews, Christians, Hindus, etc. who believe in that sort of thing.

Then what exactly? I myself choose to believe in what feels right to me. I can't say I've studied most of the topics all of you are speaking about, but what I can say is that most of the lists I've read include dozens of other religions and faiths.

What about the various faiths that came about from the Native American cultures and tribes, or the aborriginal people in Australia, or even those in Africa? Do we call them Pagan too? By Christian term, Paganism is just about anything BUT Christianity. On that account, I might be a bit foggy.

Feel free to yell at my ignorance, supply me with corrections, or do anything else that you see fit to stop this FB from going on any further.  

[Gideon Starorzewski]

Orion-Blacknuckle

So far, none of these definitions really seem to help define the word 'Pagan' at all. Paganism is such a wide-spread and diverse belief that it can't be pinned down so easily. Is it just someone who believes in magic? Probably not, because I'm sure there are Jews, Christians, Hindus, etc. who believe in that sort of thing.

Well yeah, Hermetic magic is largely based on Jewish mysticism or Qaballah.  

[Orion-Blacknuckle]

Grant Morrison

Well yeah, Hermetic magic is largely based on Jewish mysticism or Qaballah.

Would you care to elaborate on this somewhat? If you deem it has nothing to do with the topic, then we can veer away from it and get back on track.