Who Would Win: The Borg or The Changelings

[Blaze-kun]

Warning: this is a semi-serious discussion.

I'm not sure if this discussion has been done before, but in combat which species would win? I had this argument a looong time ago with a friend.
Both are seemingly supreme, flawless, and ruthless.

My friend said that the Borg would win, but I said the changelings as they can turn into basically anything.

The Borg would likely try to assimilate the changelings, and once realizing that they are too powerful of a species, would try to eliminate them.

The Changelings, I'm assuming, can take the form of anything. And as was seen in DS9, can manipulate other physical objects, like when they took Odo's abilities away. They could either choose to hide themselves by turning into rocks and shrubbery.

The Borg counter to this would be to destroy the entire planet.

The Changelings could turn into space dust or whatever makes up the substance that is space, and drift around a bit. Of course they'd have the Jem'Hadar to attack the Borg and the Vorta to uh...well not too sure what the Vorta would do!! Well the Jem Hadar have cloaking devices and superior weapons, that they could use to evade/attack the borg.

The Borg would likely adapt to the Jem Hadar weaponry before being totally destroyed and find a way to detect through the cloaking. This would leave all the Jem Hadar vulnerable and likely destroyed.

That'd leave the Changelings with 2 other options as I see it: ally with species 8472 or try to seek help from the wormhole prophets. They wouldn't be able to destroy the Borg all by themselves, what with the Borg shielding and weaponry. (They could probably find a way to convert their forms into a type of energy that could pass through the shields but the Borg would likely adapt and destroy the few Changelings that boarded their vessel with a self-destruct sequence. I doubt the changelings are eager to lose one of their own, as they probably do not reproduce frequently.) As I was saying before, they could try to ally with species 8472 before it's too late. Ah, so that's where the Vorta would come in handy, negotiating. The other option would be to try to get help from the wormhole prophets... ie camp out in the wormhole, and let the prophets destroy whatever Borg ships pass through.. wait... this would not destroy all the Borg as the Borg would not need to pass through a wormhole, they could just transwarp! argh. That idea is crap.

So I guess the only options for the changelings would be to:
Ally with the 8472s.
Hide and try to find shelter somewhere.
God-mod and find a deadly borg-virus from an old starfleet captain. XD! (Though I doubt they would have the technology to go back in time or be recorded in history long enough for a time traveler to plan to meet them.)

On the other hand, the Borg would.. adapt, adapt, adapt. And keep fighting until they have completely destroyed what they cannot assimilate.

------

In conclusion, with only two species, changeling vs the Borg, Borg would win.


Anybody have any other scenarios about Borg VS. Changeling only. Or other scenarios with 8472, other omnipotent beings, or even... Q?

Again this is not a serious discussion. Anyone can contribute their ideas.. so long as their not total crap... like my prophets destroying passing Borg ships idea. X_x" argh!  

[Saoraan]

I agree that the Borg would win. But ... they would also now be able to defeat species 8472 since Janeway shared with the Borg the abillity to create nanoprobe torpedos to which species 8472 bioships are extremely vulnerable.  

[Change (Revolution)]

I think that the changelings (It seems we are going by the liquid based DS9 variety) would put of a good fight for several long, well fought battles. Face it, the Borg can't do anything. Their biological make up is completely incompatible with the assimilation procedures.

Now, it is true that the Borg are intelligent enough to find a way around it. And they have the numbers. But against the borg, the Federation would side with the Changelings, and between the two of them, no chance in hell for the Borg.  

[Saoraan]

I disagree, keep in mind that the Borg have thousands and thousands of cubes in the delta quadrant and at wolf 359 one cube alone almost destroyed the entire federation and klingon fleets and nearly destroyed earth. So the Borg would completely destroy both the federation and the dominion if they wished to.  

[Change (Revolution)]

Saoraan

I disagree, keep in mind that the Borg have thousands and thousands of cubes in the delta quadrant and at wolf 359 one cube alone almost destroyed the entire federation and klingon fleets and nearly destroyed earth. So the Borg would completely destroy both the federation and the dominion if they wished to.

But the Borg do wish to. And they haven't.  

[Squirrelfang]

Change (Revolution)

Saoraan

I disagree, keep in mind that the Borg have thousands and thousands of cubes in the delta quadrant and at wolf 359 one cube alone almost destroyed the entire federation and klingon fleets and nearly destroyed earth. So the Borg would completely destroy both the federation and the dominion if they wished to.

But the Borg do wish to. And they haven't.

In making this claim, I believe you've underestimated a major factor that shoudl be adressed, and that is the distance the Borg must cross to reach the Alpha Quadrant. The Borg do wish to take over the Federation. The reason they hadn't was not a problem of strength, but rather of logistics.
Consider. When the Borg first met the Federation, they were still well within the Federation's own quadrant. Picard himself said that the journey to the nearest starbase would take in excess of a few years (I forget the exact number, but still...). Compare this to the distance between entire quadrants, which can take centuries to travel between...
Captain Picard first encounter the Borg in the middle of the year 2365, and the Borg cubes reached Earth by the end of 2366(info. off of Memory-alpha.org). Now, considering the Borg are truly interested in taking over humans, they would have sent their nearest cubes to Earth. This means it woudl take well over a year for the Borg to cross this distance, which is significantly less than the distance between the Delta and Alpha Quadrants.
Thus, we have it that the distance between the Borg's power center and the Federation is many many times greater than that first Borg cube and the Federation. Thus, it would take a much, much longer time for any serious expedition to cross between this distance.
In other words, it would take far longer from the period between 2365 and 2375, when the Dominion War ended (also from memory-alpha.org), for a serious fleet to reach the Alpha Quadrant.
Based on this evidence, if the Borg were to seriously try to take on the Federation, an attacking fleet would take decades to arrive. Considers how many cubes they have in the Delta Quadrant, the size and strength of this force has the potential to be virtually insurmountable. Afterall, look what a single Borg cube had been able to do...  

[ThesmilingchocoboofGOD]

yeah well the tribbles would take them both down!!!They are the ultamite power in the galaxy!!!!!*pets my tribble*  

[Se Ga Takai]

Squirrelfang

Change (Revolution)

Saoraan

I disagree, keep in mind that the Borg have thousands and thousands of cubes in the delta quadrant and at wolf 359 one cube alone almost destroyed the entire federation and klingon fleets and nearly destroyed earth. So the Borg would completely destroy both the federation and the dominion if they wished to.

But the Borg do wish to. And they haven't.

In making this claim, I believe you've underestimated a major factor that shoudl be adressed, and that is the distance the Borg must cross to reach the Alpha Quadrant. The Borg do wish to take over the Federation. The reason they hadn't was not a problem of strength, but rather of logistics.
Consider. When the Borg first met the Federation, they were still well within the Federation's own quadrant. Picard himself said that the journey to the nearest starbase would take in excess of a few years (I forget the exact number, but still...). Compare this to the distance between entire quadrants, which can take centuries to travel between...
Captain Picard first encounter the Borg in the middle of the year 2365, and the Borg cubes reached Earth by the end of 2366(info. off of Memory-alpha.org). Now, considering the Borg are truly interested in taking over humans, they would have sent their nearest cubes to Earth. This means it woudl take well over a year for the Borg to cross this distance, which is significantly less than the distance between the Delta and Alpha Quadrants.
Thus, we have it that the distance between the Borg's power center and the Federation is many many times greater than that first Borg cube and the Federation. Thus, it would take a much, much longer time for any serious expedition to cross between this distance.
In other words, it would take far longer from the period between 2365 and 2375, when the Dominion War ended (also from memory-alpha.org), for a serious fleet to reach the Alpha Quadrant.
Based on this evidence, if the Borg were to seriously try to take on the Federation, an attacking fleet would take decades to arrive. Considers how many cubes they have in the Delta Quadrant, the size and strength of this force has the potential to be virtually insurmountable. Afterall, look what a single Borg cube had been able to do...

you're forgetting Slip-Stream Technology. It takes three months to get from the Borg-Infested Delta Quadrant to Federation Alpha Quadrant, not counting the subspace folds that the Borg have used in the past. The reason the Borg haven't taken teh federation on yet? They have no reason to. They are simply spanning out, and taking system by system and building strength until they finally take the entire Galaxy over. Then, maybe they'll feel confident in taking other Galaxies.

Also, Voyager has taken out Borg Vessels alone before, and with the Modifications that were placed on it in "Endgame", it could take a fleet on it's own, more if teh Federation properly utilizes and reproduces said technology.  

[DevilsLight]

I vote the Borgs will win. Yes the changlings aren't the correct make up for assimilation but so was the species 8472. They just have to assimilate someone who can destroy the changlings and they will know how to respond accordingly.

But if they found away to assimilate the changlings I think the borg will become unstoppable by anything because it's scary to have both technology and the ability to transform.  

[Blaze-kun]

Se Ga Takai

Squirrelfang

Change (Revolution)

Saoraan

I disagree, keep in mind that the Borg have thousands and thousands of cubes in the delta quadrant and at wolf 359 one cube alone almost destroyed the entire federation and klingon fleets and nearly destroyed earth. So the Borg would completely destroy both the federation and the dominion if they wished to.

But the Borg do wish to. And they haven't.

In making this claim, I believe you've underestimated a major factor that shoudl be adressed, and that is the distance the Borg must cross to reach the Alpha Quadrant. The Borg do wish to take over the Federation. The reason they hadn't was not a problem of strength, but rather of logistics.
Consider. When the Borg first met the Federation, they were still well within the Federation's own quadrant. Picard himself said that the journey to the nearest starbase would take in excess of a few years (I forget the exact number, but still...). Compare this to the distance between entire quadrants, which can take centuries to travel between...
Captain Picard first encounter the Borg in the middle of the year 2365, and the Borg cubes reached Earth by the end of 2366(info. off of Memory-alpha.org). Now, considering the Borg are truly interested in taking over humans, they would have sent their nearest cubes to Earth. This means it woudl take well over a year for the Borg to cross this distance, which is significantly less than the distance between the Delta and Alpha Quadrants.
Thus, we have it that the distance between the Borg's power center and the Federation is many many times greater than that first Borg cube and the Federation. Thus, it would take a much, much longer time for any serious expedition to cross between this distance.
In other words, it would take far longer from the period between 2365 and 2375, when the Dominion War ended (also from memory-alpha.org), for a serious fleet to reach the Alpha Quadrant.
Based on this evidence, if the Borg were to seriously try to take on the Federation, an attacking fleet would take decades to arrive. Considers how many cubes they have in the Delta Quadrant, the size and strength of this force has the potential to be virtually insurmountable. Afterall, look what a single Borg cube had been able to do...

you're forgetting Slip-Stream Technology. It takes three months to get from the Borg-Infested Delta Quadrant to Federation Alpha Quadrant, not counting the subspace folds that the Borg have used in the past. The reason the Borg haven't taken teh federation on yet? They have no reason to. They are simply spanning out, and taking system by system and building strength until they finally take the entire Galaxy over. Then, maybe they'll feel confident in taking other Galaxies.

Also, Voyager has taken out Borg Vessels alone before, and with the Modifications that were placed on it in "Endgame", it could take a fleet on it's own, more if teh Federation properly utilizes and reproduces said technology.

Slip-Stream? Hey that's from Andromeda!! sweatdrop You mean transwarp conduits right?

I think the reason the Borg don't attack the Federation head on is because there are much easier species to assimilate, as they've been doing in the Delta quadrant. Oh sure they could easily manage to get a fleet to Federation space, distance is not an issue, but the constant battle that would ensue is too much trouble to worry over one species when there are plenty of other weaker species that are much easier to assimilate. Why waste resources?  

[Se Ga Takai]

Blaze-kun

Slip-Stream? Hey that's from Andromeda!! sweatdrop You mean transwarp conduits right?

I think the reason the Borg don't attack the Federation head on is because there are much easier species to assimilate, as they've been doing in the Delta quadrant. Oh sure they could easily manage to get a fleet to Federation space, distance is not an issue, but the constant battle that would ensue is too much trouble to worry over one species when there are plenty of other weaker species that are much easier to assimilate. Why waste resources?

nope, Quantum Slipstream is technology that Voyager tried to steal from teh Borg so they could get home faster. it was first seen on the "U.S.S. DAuntless", teh ship that Voyager thought the Federation had sent for them. that episode can be seen here

The episode where Voyage steals the Technology and use it can be seen here  

[Blaze-kun]

Se Ga Takai

Blaze-kun

Slip-Stream? Hey that's from Andromeda!! sweatdrop You mean transwarp conduits right?

I think the reason the Borg don't attack the Federation head on is because there are much easier species to assimilate, as they've been doing in the Delta quadrant. Oh sure they could easily manage to get a fleet to Federation space, distance is not an issue, but the constant battle that would ensue is too much trouble to worry over one species when there are plenty of other weaker species that are much easier to assimilate. Why waste resources?

nope, Quantum Slipstream is technology that Voyager tried to steal from teh Borg so they could get home faster. it was first seen on the "U.S.S. DAuntless", teh ship that Voyager thought the Federation had sent for them. that episode can be seen here

The episode where Voyage steals the Technology and use it can be seen here

Ahh I see.. surprised  

[Saoraan]

my apologies for my absence over the past week I have been without a computer ... crying ... BUT ... now I am back biggrin and as I was saying the Borg could wipe out all the alpha and gamma quadrant races but ... as you were saying it would cost them several ships and alot of resources so they have decided not to even bother with it for the alpha and gamma quadrant races have nothing they want but if they did you bet the borg would get it and nothing would stop them!!!  

[WarriorShadow]

The borg fear the federation, but the federation wouldnt have any part in the war between Collective and Dominion.

As shown http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v141/Spacer/map_new_federation.jpg The borg and Dominion are Closer to each other by Conventional Methods of Travel, They dont need to go near the Federation, so...Hell why did we bring them into this?

Anyway, the borg controll at rough Estimate, 40-60% of the Delta Quadrent, with well over a Million different Intersteller capable ships.
The Dominion, though Crippiled and battered by the war with the Federation, though with the production rates they have, would still be weak.

If the borg Encounter the Dominion in the Indicated area, where the dominion is preparing to breach the Delta/gamma barrier...There would be War of some sorts (If there isnt already)

The Borg, after assimilating a few Ships, would Decide that the Dominion held space is a Tactical Adanvtage in the Galaxy, Not many Places have a Wormhole that Opens RIGHT next to a Federation starbase.

So all in all, the borg would Wipe the Founders out, Assimilate the Gamma Quadrent, then turn to the Alpha/Beta Quadrent.

....or something.