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 Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:56 pm
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This topic could be hugely triggering for some people. Also, it's a long OP.
First, required reading: Link.
I've linked to a post made by Freyja Aswyn on her blog, in which she quotes the post of another blogger who's blog is sadly no longer active.
I want to do two things with this thread.
First, I'd like to discuss the actions of Galina Krasskova, Raven Kaldera, Anya Kless and the other people involved with the Ironwood Kindred and Cauldron Farm, and how they treat ordeals and other aspects of their practices (god marriage, god-slaving etc.)
Who are the Ironwood Kindred?
They're a group of people, including who've I've just mentioned. They have their own blogs here and here, though I'm betting Krasskova and Kaldera probably have personal blogs, as Kless does but I believe that's linked in Aswyns article.
Why the hell do you want to talk about them?
The Ironwood Kindred are a highly disliked group, even among their own area apparently for their actions. They refer to themselves as "Northern Tradition Shaman" and practice "spiritual ordeal work." Now, we all know the first term is pretty bullshit, but what does the second one mean. I'm going to use Anya Kless' words:
Quote: According to Northern Tradition shaman Raven Kaldera, an ordeal “uses pain, fear, suffering, and discomfort for the purposes of achieving altered states, coming out of them, creating energy for magical work, cleansing, breaking down internal barriers, and offerings to the Spirits.” It is said that when Odin hung on the tree for nine days, he sacrificed himself to himself. Sometimes an ordeal allows us to do this—to dramatically give something of ourselves or push ourselves beyond our perceived limits in order to spiritually grow, transform, or experience a cathartic release. Alternatively, it might be a gift or offering to a deity, a willing demonstration of our devotion, penitence, or love.
The ordeal which Aswyn and the blogger she quotes are addressing is in fact Kless' ordeal, in which Galina Krasskova (who she refers to as "Tamyris" in her blog) gave her a corset piercing of 24 individual piercings on her back and then tied to to a pole and injected saline into her chest. This was meant to be part of her "marriage" to Odin, and she describes the ordeal as Odin "making love" to her. Krasskova describes a series of ordeals based on the Nine Worlds she went through in one of the blogs I linked. It's hard to determine exactly what happened, since she describes things in rather... imagintive terms. Here's an example from each of them:
Hel ripping out her heart
Talking to the dragon Nidhogg
Going to caves in Belgium to talk to Swartalfs (complete with six foot spiders)
Dancing in the hall of Surt (Odin sent her there btw)
Got a spa treatment as a gift from Odin (I can't even make that up)
Angrboda had someone she fell in love with buy her a replica of Eowyn's sword from Lord of the Rings
Ordered to walk a labyrinth by Nerthus
Did some salvia with some Alfar
Died on Yggdrasil
(It should be of note that, mostly, when she's talking to mythic beings, they are "riding a human horse". Yes, she literally used Vodoun terms. Think of that as you will)
So, seeing as how fanciful she describes things, it's sometimes hard to figure out what's going on, and also not all of her ordeals were painful, however, some of the things she seems to have gone through include:
Having her face pushed into a cauldron of water until she nearly drowned
Camping outside in below freezing temperatures
Dancing wearing a device which would cause auto-flagellation on her back with barbed wire.
Being semi buried in a pit for I think a day, with little food.
A 24 hook suspension (where they pierce you with hooks and suspend you)
In addition to...that, the Ironwood Kindred practice that horse thing I mentioned earlier a lot, and believe such things as they are made sexual predators by the gods.
Now that we know who they are and what they do, I'd like to discuss thoughts on them.
My opinion? You notice how I'm not spelling Odhinn the way I usually do up there? Yeah, that would mostly be because I'm finding myself agreeing with the people at the heathengods.com forum where I was trying to find a live version of the blog that Aswyn quote (no such luck): they're worshipping thoughtforms. ******** huge ones. I know it's an open pantheon, but I don't think I've ever seen people miss the point so hard ever. Kless claims to worship Lilith of all things, and Ironwood as a whole is commiting so much misappropriation it's hard to tell where one culture (or sub culture as it is) stops and another begins. They also seem to have a huge God fetish. A really unhealthy one at that. One that causes them to abuse people in the guises of Gods. There's just so much not right with that I don't know where to start. I'm with Tea on being fine with you including your sexuality in your religious beliefs, but my tolerance for that stops when you start saying my Gods are telling you to rape people.
For the second part of this thread, I'd like to discuss ordeals in general. While I may think Ironwood is batshit insane, I don't think I could completely disagree with the idea of ordeals altogether. No, not their definition of ordeals (Kless' ideas on Odhinn's sacrifice are... really just odd to begin with), but simply religious experiences that cause us to grow through their difficulty. For one things, the Ironwood Kindred have it all wrong. Their answer to anything seems to be an ordeal. Krasskova feels bad, it's because she doesn't love Odin enough so she has to go kill herself for him. I really want to know which version of the Eddas they're reading because they claim to be using primary source evidence alongside UPG and I say, like s**t they are. Moreover, they push it on people. At the end of her article, Aswyn gives another quote of Krasskova's dubious activities, in which a Frejyaswoman goes to her for help, she tells this Freyjaswoman that the obvious answer is to "marry" Odhinn and ends up branding her with a Valknutter and an Os, which caused her to "horse" Odin and Loki all the time (This of course turned her into a sexual predator, which I'm going to have to suspect was at Krasskova's urging), and before that gives the story of another woman who Krasskova told that Odin didn't want her to get treatment for a life threatening disease. Just, what the ********? What the ******** ********? Why isn't this woman in jail? She thinks she's a ******** Valkyrie for ******** sake.
That bullshit aside, as I said, I don't think doing things that are hard within your religion is a bad thing at all. I would probably say that some of the things I've gone through and have done for my religion have been ordeals, for instance, as someone who has a great love for fermentation and distillation, gifts of alcohol are always very significant, and gifts of large quantity and very good quality are often hard for me to make. I still make them, they're just harder than using say, milk. That's one of the reason why I make them.
So, in addition to discussing the utter ******** of Ironwood, what are some ordeals that you've had to face in your practice? How did they help you? Did they place additional challenges on you? And in light of people like Krasskova, do you know of any examples in your religious path where people have just gone out of line on what must be done for the Gods, and what constitutes a proper challenge or ordeal placed on you by your religion?
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Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:46 pm
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Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:51 pm
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Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:02 pm
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Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:12 pm
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Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:35 pm
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AniMajor Ugh, gross. My brain shut down about halfway through that and told me that that was so messed up that it had to be a lie. And then I remembered that crap that I've heard from some of the people who used to be part of the "pagan circle" where I went to school, and what their own thoughtforms "made" them do. As to your second part, I've never been in service to any gods (and after reading that, it really makes me never, ever want to), but I have sacrificed things as part of others' rituals to gods. It was always a little upsetting, but never painful or deadly. I respect the wish to give your life in service to a god, up to a certain point. |
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Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:48 pm
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Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:18 am
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AniMajor I suppose that you can be a warrior in more ways than one,
For sure. I do have a question though, somewhat offtopic-ish - is Asatru bent on needing to actually bring the fight in a literal sense, fist to fist? Or can one be a peaceful abstainer, someone like Ghandi for example, but still be considered a warrior? They are still fighting, just without bloodshed. Is there an explicit rule that'd forbid that type from being considered a warrior?
Quote: but yeah, I never understood how people could think that they're better because they sacrifice more. You'd think that gods would prefer a little less arrogance to more sacrifices.
Ah, but by sheer volume, weight of number alone, they are doing more. And more is always better, isn't it? ninja
I do agree, it's a very silly idea to espouse, but I can see where they're getting it.
Quote: I mean, I thought sacrifices were things you were reluctant to give up, but do so because you want to. I don't understand how any of what she did is a sacrifice, it really looks like to me she was self-mutilating while pretending to serve her god.
I suppose it then becomes an issue of whether or not she wanted to do the self mutilating to begin with, or if she was coerced somehow (ie, drugs and the like). I can't really make heads nor tails of her blog that was linked, aside from 'ow, I hurt badly from these needles in my back' and 'wow, Odin loves me! He hurts me because he cares! Lookit him manifest!' - she's a bit of an odd writer. |
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Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:21 am
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Byaggha AniMajor I suppose that you can be a warrior in more ways than one, For sure. I do have a question though, somewhat offtopic-ish - is Asatru bent on needing to actually bring the fight in a literal sense, fist to fist? Or can one be a peaceful abstainer, someone like Ghandi for example, but still be considered a warrior? They are still fighting, just without bloodshed. Is there an explicit rule that'd forbid that type from being considered a warrior?
Also it's not like being a warrior is the only way the Gods want you to be. Odhinn likes his skalds.
Quote: Quote: but yeah, I never understood how people could think that they're better because they sacrifice more. You'd think that gods would prefer a little less arrogance to more sacrifices. Ah, but by sheer volume, weight of number alone, they are doing more. And more is always better, isn't it? ninja I do agree, it's a very silly idea to espouse, but I can see where they're getting it.
...That sort of defeats the purpose of the death cult. Also can she just stop calling herself a Valkyrie? Cause that would be great.
Quote: Quote: I mean, I thought sacrifices were things you were reluctant to give up, but do so because you want to. I don't understand how any of what she did is a sacrifice, it really looks like to me she was self-mutilating while pretending to serve her god. I suppose it then becomes an issue of whether or not she wanted to do the self mutilating to begin with, or if she was coerced somehow (ie, drugs and the like). I can't really make heads nor tails of her blog that was linked, aside from 'ow, I hurt badly from these needles in my back' and 'wow, Odin loves me! He hurts me because he cares! Lookit him manifest!' - she's a bit of an odd writer. |
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Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:38 am
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Byaggha For sure. I do have a question though, somewhat offtopic-ish - is Asatru bent on needing to actually bring the fight in a literal sense, fist to fist? Or can one be a peaceful abstainer, someone like Ghandi for example, but still be considered a warrior? They are still fighting, just without bloodshed. Is there an explicit rule that'd forbid that type from being considered a warrior?
The "Warrior" ideal stems from the mythology surrounding what becomes of the dead. Death on the battle field being the way to go.
This isn't a function of saying that others don't get XY or Z, but it is a function of saying that a specific group gets Valhalla.
I'm with Deo though. Doesn't sound like fun to me.
As for Ironwood, I consider them to be one step up from the Frosts, but that's only because I think there is a special place in hell for people who victimize children. These folks are adults, and to whatever extent, they're consenting.
It's a ******** up abusive-enforced consent based on the words of the person undergoing the ordeal, but it isn't against their stated desires.
Just... ********. gonk
As for ordeals, I've experienced a handful. I'm intentionally putting off some- which has caused a bit of family strife. sweatdrop
They're not really fodder for this thread, mostly because I don't feel like having to spell out a whole cosmology.
My reaction to them I can discuss.
Two of the most important ones left me feeling completely broken- like I had fallen down a mine shaft. The fall was scary, hitting the ground hurt- and then the fear and loneliness kicked in and made everything worse. The only solution- the only way to move forward was to pick myself up and start to climb out.
The ordeal wasn't in the falling. The ordeal was in putting myself back together and standing up again. |
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Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:51 am
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First off, thanks Celeblin, that cleared up quite a bit. 3nodding And I do agree - less Valkyrie. She sounds more like a nut than a battle-maiden to me.
TeaDidikai The "Warrior" ideal stems from the mythology surrounding what becomes of the dead. Death on the battle field being the way to go. This isn't a function of saying that others don't get XY or Z, but it is a function of saying that a specific group gets Valhalla. I'm with Deo though. Doesn't sound like fun to me.
Mmm, that's a point, and as Celeblin mentioned, there's more than one person beloved of Odin, and more than one type of battle.
And flyting sounds kind of fun. ninja
Quote: As for Ironwood, I consider them to be one step up from the Frosts, but that's only because I think there is a special place in hell for people who victimize children. These folks are adults, and to whatever extent, they're consenting. It's a ******** up abusive-enforced consent based on the words of the person undergoing the ordeal, but it isn't against their stated desires. Just... ********. gonk
I'm not sure I can hold them above the Frosts; the perpetuation of unhealthy dealings in both cases is harming a lot of psyches. And I'm not positive there's always 'consent' in these ordeals they're putting people through. I have the feeling there's more than a little coercion there; a vibe of 'if you don't do this, Odin won't love you' sort of thing. Against the right mindset, those words would work to get someone to do anything, simply because they don't want to lose the feeling of being special to a god...
Is abuse-based consent really proper consent? Or just a panic feeling and a want to keep themselves in good graces, a consent against better judgment because they no longer access the part of themselves that cares for safety, but rather just wants the abuser to love them?
Quote: The ordeal wasn't in the falling. The ordeal was in putting myself back together and standing up again.
I find it usually is. Thanks for sharing that much, Tea. 3nodding
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Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:10 am
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Byaggha And flyting sounds kind of fun. ninja
Quote: I'm not sure I can hold them above the Frosts; the perpetuation of unhealthy dealings in both cases is harming a lot of psyches. And I'm not positive there's always 'consent' in these ordeals they're putting people through. I have the feeling there's more than a little coercion there; a vibe of 'if you don't do this, Odin won't love you' sort of thing. Against the right mindset, those words would work to get someone to do anything, simply because they don't want to lose the feeling of being special to a god... Is abuse-based consent really proper consent? Or just a panic feeling and a want to keep themselves in good graces, a consent against better judgment because they no longer access the part of themselves that cares for safety, but rather just wants the abuser to love them?
My challenge is that at what point does our aversion to a practice become the standard by which we judge consent.
When reading the posts about how the participant was feeling- I can say I would never have considered them a candidate. But then, I have standards.
I find what was done disgusting- but not for what was done, how it was done (okay, maybe with the exception of the saline bit- that was just uncalled for) but the rest of that entry isn't unreasonable on the surface- and there isn't a way to tell as someone issuing the ordeal that what is beneath the surface- the description of how she felt, was going to be present.
Someone who wants this stuff is going to find a way around standards. They'll go to someone who isn't as ethical. They'll manipulate an ethical person.
I think what happened was ******** up. But I also note that there was no voiced concern about proceeding.
Quote: Thanks for sharing that much, Tea. 3nodding |
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Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:46 am
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TeaDidikai The confusion stems from the fact that most folks don't realize that Valhalla and Hel aren't the only options.
Kind of funny, really, when you consider that only like...a few types of people are mentioned for those two places, and there's many more needed to run a community...sort of stands to reason there'd be need for more places, hey?
Quote: My challenge is that at what point does our aversion to a practice become the standard by which we judge consent.
A legitimate question, and one that could apply to the Frosts as well. As much as I don't like devil's advocating on this one, how much of it is that we don't like what they do? And who is to say that, inside certain communities, the consent of a 12 to 14 year old isn't the same as an adult's? Or that a parent's will for their child's well-being (which I am sure this will be pushed as, given what the whole thing is for) is not paramount, and the child should be indoctrinated to the faith regardless of what it takes to do so?
Quote: When reading the posts about how the participant was feeling- I can say I would never have considered them a candidate. But then, I have standards.
I honestly wonder if she's safe to have anywhere near BDSM, let alone Ordeal work. She apparently does consent to having the ritual done - Kless' website says she won't perform without consent from all involved, and the gods - but I'm not sure it's proper informed consent, to be honest. She came off as a bit...flighty and strange, someone now lost to abusive relationship, and one who doesn't want to come back. And worst of it, someone who did not know what she was getting into.
Quote: I find what was done disgusting- but not for what was done, how it was done
Mmm, I'll go with that. It isn't so much that they corseted her and tied her to a pole, injected her with saline and the like, it was more the presentation of it, and the fact that frankly, I'm not sure she was in her right mind. The whole version I read came across as very dreamlike; it glossed over a lot of the ugly.
Quote: (okay, maybe with the exception of the saline bit- that was just uncalled for)
And believe me, that was - she could have died. They were lucky they didn't kill her outright.
Quote: but the rest of that entry isn't unreasonable on the surface- and there isn't a way to tell as someone issuing the ordeal that what is beneath the surface- the description of how she felt, was going to be present.
Also true.
Quote: Someone who wants this stuff is going to find a way around standards. They'll go to someone who isn't as ethical. They'll manipulate an ethical person.
Things like this always make me shudder, but I know these people are out there. There's a reason I really like questioning things personally before going through with them.
Quote: I think what happened was ******** up. But I also note that there was no voiced concern about proceeding.
And I think that's my biggest problem with this group, as a whole - no one is there acting as a voice of reason for these people, who clearly are not of a mindset to act as such for themselves. Extremely cruel people torture people as a means of religious bondage, if you'll pardon the terribad pun. Basically, they indoctrinated this person in question extremely heavily before even trying this part of it, and then insisted she continue down the path of extreme suffering, or else the god would leave her at the altar.
This particular case reads like a classic abusive relationship, to be honest - hurt and harm and tear at her psyche with other trials, then show her someone 'loves' her, then threaten to take it away if you don't let them do something risky/something you normally wouldn't have considered. And she'll keep coming back, because somewhere under all this abuse and pain, she KNOWS the god loves her.
This does not sound of a healthy relationship to me. But in the end, I am not sure if it was the community or her that was the bigger problem... |
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Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:54 am
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TeaDidikai Byaggha For sure. I do have a question though, somewhat offtopic-ish - is Asatru bent on needing to actually bring the fight in a literal sense, fist to fist? Or can one be a peaceful abstainer, someone like Ghandi for example, but still be considered a warrior? They are still fighting, just without bloodshed. Is there an explicit rule that'd forbid that type from being considered a warrior? Specific rule? Not that I am aware of, but I think the context makes it pretty clear. The "Warrior" ideal stems from the mythology surrounding what becomes of the dead. Death on the battle field being the way to go. This isn't a function of saying that others don't get XY or Z, but it is a function of saying that a specific group gets Valhalla. I'm with Deo though. Doesn't sound like fun to me.
Quote: As for Ironwood, I consider them to be one step up from the Frosts, but that's only because I think there is a special place in hell for people who victimize children. These folks are adults, and to whatever extent, they're consenting. It's a ******** up abusive-enforced consent based on the words of the person undergoing the ordeal, but it isn't against their stated desires.
Exactly.
Quote: My reaction to them I can discuss. Two of the most important ones left me feeling completely broken- like I had fallen down a mine shaft. The fall was scary, hitting the ground hurt- and then the fear and loneliness kicked in and made everything worse. The only solution- the only way to move forward was to pick myself up and start to climb out. The ordeal wasn't in the falling. The ordeal was in putting myself back together and standing up again. |
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Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:31 am
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Byaggha TeaDidikai The confusion stems from the fact that most folks don't realize that Valhalla and Hel aren't the only options. Kind of funny, really, when you consider that only like...a few types of people are mentioned for those two places, and there's many more needed to run a community...sort of stands to reason there'd be need for more places, hey?
According to him, at least one of the poems support dying into the halls of other gods, but I'm ******** if I can remember which one.
Quote: Quote: When reading the posts about how the participant was feeling- I can say I would never have considered them a candidate. But then, I have standards. I honestly wonder if she's safe to have anywhere near BDSM, let alone Ordeal work. She apparently does consent to having the ritual done - Kless' website says she won't perform without consent from all involved, and the gods - but I'm not sure it's proper informed consent, to be honest. She came off as a bit...flighty and strange, someone now lost to abusive relationship, and one who doesn't want to come back. And worst of it, someone who did not know what she was getting into.
Secondly, I don't recall seeing ANY of the women Odhinn has relationships with being called whores. Grid's not a whore, Fjorgyn's not a whore, where the ******** is this Odhinn's whore bullshit coming from? Not to say that whores are bad, but if you tend to be a mother of one of the children of Odhinn, you get more of a nod rather than being called a whore. I think the intro to Snorri's Edda calls Freyja his concubine, but if they're using that as a guide, then what the ********, you know what, no, that's not surprising. It's not surprising in the least that they would actually use Snorri's forward as text for what they do. It's as much bullshit as they are after all.
Quote: Quote: I find what was done disgusting- but not for what was done, how it was done Mmm, I'll go with that. It isn't so much that they corseted her and tied her to a pole, injected her with saline and the like, it was more the presentation of it, and the fact that frankly, I'm not sure she was in her right mind. The whole version I read came across as very dreamlike; it glossed over a lot of the Quote: Quote: I think what happened was ******** up. But I also note that there was no voiced concern about proceeding. And I think that's my biggest problem with this group, as a whole - no one is there acting as a voice of reason for these people, who clearly are not of a mindset to act as such for themselves. Extremely cruel people torture people as a means of religious bondage, if you'll pardon the terribad pun. Basically, they indoctrinated this person in question extremely heavily before even trying this part of it, and then insisted she continue down the path of extreme suffering, or else the god would leave her at the altar. This particular case reads like a classic abusive relationship, to be honest - hurt and harm and tear at her psyche with other trials, then show her someone 'loves' her, then threaten to take it away if you don't let them do something risky/something you normally wouldn't have considered. And she'll keep coming back, because somewhere under all this abuse and pain, she KNOWS the god loves her.
Quote: This does not sound of a healthy relationship to me. But in the end, I am not sure if it was the community or her that was the bigger problem... |
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