Pope Benedict attacks [UK] government over Equality Bill

[Priestley]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8492597.stm

Pope Benedict attacks government over Equality Bill

The Pope has urged Catholic bishops in England and Wales to fight the UK's Equality Bill with "missionary zeal".

Pope Benedict XVI said the legislation "violates natural law" and could end the right of the Catholic Church to ban gay people from senior positions.

The Pope has confirmed he will come to the UK this year, the first papal visit since John Paul II in 1982.

The government said the bill, which is currently going through Parliament, would make the UK a fairer place.

'Unjust limitations'

The Pope told the Catholic bishops of England and Wales gathered in Rome: "Your country is well-known for its firm commitment to equality of opportunity for all members of society.

"Yet, as you have rightly pointed out, the effect of some of the legislation designed to achieve this goal has been to impose unjust limitations on the freedom of religious communities to act in accordance with their beliefs.

"We believe everyone should have a fair chance in life and not be discriminated against"
Government Equalities Office spokesman

"In some respects it actually violates the natural law upon which the equality of all human beings is grounded and by which it is guaranteed."

Gay rights charity Stonewall condemned the Pope's comments, saying equality had to apply to everyone.

Senior parliamentary officer Jonathan Finney told BBC 5 live: "People should not be denied access to services and employment purely because they are gay...

"We've got to guard against sweeping exemptions seeming to protect one person's freedom, which actually really impact on other people's.

He added: "What you can't start doing is saying that religious people have hard-won freedoms, we'll now restrict those, we won't give them to gay people, we won't give them to women."

Religious leaders have voiced concern that the Equality Bill could force churches to employ sexually active gay people and transsexuals when hiring staff other than priests or ministers.

No official itinerary has yet been drawn up for the Pope's visit but officials at the Vatican and in the UK told the BBC it was likely to take place in September.

A spokesman for the Catholic Communications Network said further details were expected in early March.

The pontiff is expected to visit Birmingham - as part of the planned beatification of Cardinal John Newman - and Scotland.

'Ill-informed claim'

The National Secular Society said it would mount a protest campaign made up of gay groups, victims of clerical abuse, feminists, family planning organisations and pro-abortion groups among others.

President Terry Sanderson said: "The taxpayer in this country is going to be faced with a bill of some £20m for the visit of the Pope - a visit in which he has already indicated he will attack equal rights and promote discrimination."

Human rights campaigner Peter Tatchell said the Pope's comments were a "coded attack on the legal rights granted to women and gay people".

"His ill-informed claim that our equality laws undermine religious freedom suggests that he supports the right of churches to discriminate in accordance with their religious ethos," he said.

"He seems to be defending discrimination by religious institutions and demanding that they should be above the law."

"What the Pope is doing is trying to encourage the bishops to keep their resolve in very fluctuating morals in cultures and societies today"
Robert Mickens
Rome correspondent, The Tablet

But Catholic MP Ann Widdecombe said: "This isn't a debate about homosexuality, this is a debate about religious freedom."

She told BBC Radio 5 live: "If a faith teaches, as major faiths do, that something is wrong, then quite clearly you cannot have somebody who believes that it's right actually occupying a very senior position.

"That we have accepted as natural justice for a very long time."

She added: "Nobody else is saying that the teachings of the Catholic Church should influence what non-Catholics do - this is about allowing Catholics to pursue their own faith."

Robert Mickens, Rome correspondent at the Catholic newspaper The Tablet, said the Pope's position was "nothing really new - this is part of the classic Catholic teaching on human sexuality".

"What the Pope is doing is trying to encourage the bishops to keep their resolve in very fluctuating morals in cultures and societies today."

'Prejudiced employers'

He added: "It's not that the Pope is wading so much into the particulars of British society or British law - I think this is very much a piece of his longstanding teaching."

Liberal Democrat MP Evan Harris, who sits on the Joint Committee on Human Rights, said all Britons - including Catholics and gay people - were protected by UK equality laws.

"Religious people can be reassured that there is nothing in the Equality Bill which imposes gay priests on religions, but it does protect the general workforce from prejudiced employers," he said.

A spokesman for the Government Equalities Office said: "The Pope acknowledges our country's firm commitment to equality for all members of society.

"We believe everyone should have a fair chance in life and not be discriminated against. The Equality Bill will make Britain a fairer and more equal place."  

[Matt Pniewski]

In Respone:

Newski tells Pope Benedict to Eat It.  

[Semiremis]

Good for him, he believes that freedom of religion is being infringed upon (something that needs to be protected) and he's speaking out against it...I take no issue with that.

In the article the Pope is quoted as saying: "Your country is well-known for its firm commitment to equality of opportunity for all members of society.

"Yet, as you have rightly pointed out, the effect of some of the legislation designed to achieve this goal has been to impose unjust limitations on the freedom of religious communities to act in accordance with their beliefs.

Like with what Widdecombe says in the article, the Catholic Church at least in regards to this subject is not trying to influence what non-catholics do and the secular world has no place trying to influence Catholic moral teachings. The Church shouldn't be forced to put into a position of authority those who stand against her teachings, and that's what the objection to the equality bill is all about based on what I've read.


Personally, I'd have to see the details before I could really say what I thought on this but a huge red flag goes up for me when freedom is gained by trampling on other freedom. If it's just the general workforce that's being affected by this then I see no reason for the Church to object.  

[Lord Maxdom]

I have to side with the Pope on this one, though I believe in equal rights it is their right as a religion to have their specific beliefs. I think gay people can do anything strait people can do, but if a belief is against it, you can't force them to believe it is alright.  

[freelance lover]

I laugh because the words "Kill Pope" are currently written on my roommate's to-do list (as a joke, obviously).

While I'm not real familiar with English politics, I think an equality bill will be a good thing to pass. It prevents homosexuals from all the things minorities are protected from. I know in America it wouldn't be an issue, since we have a separation of church and state, but I'm not sure how that works in England.

Equality is necessary and important. I've always thought the idea of banning someone from the pulpit based on sexual orientation is ridiculous. I can't see how their orientation would change their ability to do God's work. Regardless, at the same time it's the church's right to protect what they believe. If a church takes issue with it, I can't be too bothered. It's their personal beliefs and their right to practice, I just don't see the need to rule out all equality based on one thing.  

[zz1000zz]

freelance lover

Equality is necessary and important. I've always thought the idea of banning someone from the pulpit based on sexual orientation is ridiculous. I can't see how their orientation would change their ability to do God's work. Regardless, at the same time it's the church's right to protect what they believe. If a church takes issue with it, I can't be too bothered. It's their personal beliefs and their right to practice, I just don't see the need to rule out all equality based on one thing.

The important thing to realize is this law would not force the Catholic church to allow homosexual priests (who seem to be more hated than child molesting priests). This law would only affect non-priestly jobs, such as administrators.

P.S. Is it me, or does the Catholic church dislike the gay people more than child molesters?  

[Call Me Apple]

freelance lover

I laugh because the words "Kill Pope" are currently written on my roommate's to-do list (as a joke, obviously).

While I'm not real familiar with English politics, I think an equality bill will be a good thing to pass. It prevents homosexuals from all the things minorities are protected from. I know in America it wouldn't be an issue, since we have a separation of church and state, but I'm not sure how that works in England.

Equality is necessary and important. I've always thought the idea of banning someone from the pulpit based on sexual orientation is ridiculous. I can't see how their orientation would change their ability to do God's work. Regardless, at the same time it's the church's right to protect what they believe. If a church takes issue with it, I can't be too bothered. It's their personal beliefs and their right to practice, I just don't see the need to rule out all equality based on one thing.

We have a VERY blurry separation between church and state.
the UK's secular line is far more clear. After living in both places, it was quite easy to see this.

But i do agree with bold.

zz1000zz

The important thing to realize is this law would not force the Catholic church to allow homosexual priests (who seem to be more hated than child molesting priests). This law would only affect non-priestly jobs, such as administrators.

P.S. Is it me, or does the Catholic church dislike the gay people more than child molesters?

Good point. And Lol, it does appear that way.  

[zz1000zz]

Call Me Apple

zz1000zz

The important thing to realize is this law would not force the Catholic church to allow homosexual priests (who seem to be more hated than child molesting priests). This law would only affect non-priestly jobs, such as administrators.

P.S. Is it me, or does the Catholic church dislike the gay people more than child molesters?

Good point. And Lol, it does appear that way.

"We won't hire gay people, but we will protect child molesters."

Yeah, I may have issues with Catholicism.  

[Priestley]

The protestation of Catholics over the infringement of their religious rights is what both puzzles and frustrates me most.

Democracy, which is of the world, provides the freedoms of the public to change governmental policies by campaigning through their parliamentary representative, through the right to vote and through the right to protest. If we are talking about freedoms, neither can the freedom of religion infringe on people's rights to employment. The Church is not of the world but is in the world and should abide by the laws of the nations in which it finds itself, unless that law infringes on Bible teaching where it becomes moral objection of the individual.

Freedom of religion does not protect the Church against the illegality of employment discrimination, just as freedom of religion does not protect the Church against the illegality of molestation of children or criminal negligence in the workplace.

Widdecombe is wrong. It's not even a debate about religious freedoms. It's the Church crying because it can't be a special exception to the rule.

The moment the Church is given the power to judge and condemn the people in its community independently of the secular community, the closer we will be to resurrecting the Sanhedrin of the New Testament.  

[Matt Pniewski]

Semiremis

Good for him, he believes that freedom of religion is being infringed upon (something that needs to be protected) and he's speaking out against it...I take no issue with that.

In the article the Pope is quoted as saying: "Your country is well-known for its firm commitment to equality of opportunity for all members of society.

"Yet, as you have rightly pointed out, the effect of some of the legislation designed to achieve this goal has been to impose unjust limitations on the freedom of religious communities to act in accordance with their beliefs.

Like with what Widdecombe says in the article, the Catholic Church at least in regards to this subject is not trying to influence what non-catholics do and the secular world has no place trying to influence Catholic moral teachings. The Church shouldn't be forced to put into a position of authority those who stand against her teachings, and that's what the objection to the equality bill is all about based on what I've read.


Personally, I'd have to see the details before I could really say what I thought on this but a huge red flag goes up for me when freedom is gained by trampling on other freedom. If it's just the general workforce that's being affected by this then I see no reason for the Church to object.

The Catholic Church, and other religious organizations, feel threatened by Equality. Gay Rights, Women's Rights, Abortion Rights (which i seperate from Women's right for various reason).... Religious organizations have very set opinions on these things, and they think that if the Government takes an opposing stance, they are infringing on THEIR rights.


However, nobody is claiming the Church can't protest Abortion, or the Church can't exclude homosexual priests. They believe simply that the opposing stances are infringing on the rights of Christians. Fact is, there rights to believe what they believe and act on those is not in question.




Pretty much what the Pope is saying is "We want people to be bigots and hate people who are different", something he learned in his past as a Hitler Youth no doubt.  

[Lazarus The Resurected]

Realy Matt, the Nazi shot? I'm surprised at you. The catholic church has always been biggotted, woman hating, gay-bashing, and descriminatory regardless of who thier leader is. JP would be making the same protest if he weren't burning in hell right now.

zz The Catholic church dislikes open gays more than child molesters in clerical positions. They cover up child molestation cases to protect the church from scandal. The concept works something like this: Since the church is founded by God and God is infallible the church must also be infallible. Since the church is run by mortals and pretty much exists to bring in money and keep people subjugated, I has to hide all wrongdoing by priests because God would never appoint a homosexual to the priesthood. The catholic church has yet to ever admit is was wrong for anything, ever.

Now, on to the topic at hand The Catholics should still have every right to deny access to jobs at any level to gays. It's still better than the torturing and burning treatment that used to be given out. Besides they still wont let women occupy significant positions inside thier church.
Tatchell's comments amuse me because the church has never been coded about its attacks on the rights of women or gays.
"His ill-informed claim that our equality laws undermine religious freedom suggests that he supports the right of churches to discriminate in accordance with their religious ethos,"
The church should have full power to do whatever it wants within it's own organization in acordance with it's religious ethos.
"He seems to be defending discrimination by religious institutions and demanding that they should be above the law."
They still haven't gotten used to the last 300 years or so, because the other 1700 they WERE THE LAW.

Mod Edit: Removed the foulest derogatory remarks. Try to keep a civil tone.  

[freelance lover]

Hey guys, let's try to avoid bashing the Catholic church. If you have a problem with it, please try to avoid using derogatory words.

@zz and Apple: Thanks for clearing that up for me, that makes sense now.

I have this gray area with churches and what they do. I'm all for women being pastors, homosexuals in the pulpit, etc but at the same time I respect others rights to practice religion how they do. I realize it's kind of a double standard, because I get really irked when people say certain minorities can't be in the pulpit. It's really a fine balancing act for me I guess.

Regardless, I think the equality law is important and should be passed. It seems to me like they don't want equality at all, which is what bothers me.  

[Lazarus The Resurected]

Yeah Benedict's ideal world would be the dark ages all over again. Catholic church as ultimate authority, women in "their place" anyone who dissagrees with the Church gets killed. Also, I can't say "sh--."?

Mod Response: That word wasn't the problem. The sentence, as a whole, was.  

[Matt Pniewski]

Lazarus The Resurected

Realy Matt, the Nazi shot? I'm surprised at you. The catholic church has always been biggotted, woman hating, gay-bashing, and descriminatory regardless of who thier leader is. JP would be making the same protest if he weren't burning in hell right now.

I'm taking the Nazi shot. While I've always had a problem with Church leadership, I was born and raised catholic, and my family's priest is still very much a person of great moral character, and definitely a source of guidance in my life. The Nazi shot was a cheap joke, and it also concreted my dislike of Church leadership, and my very obvious dislike of most organized religion.

I will not disrespect religion as a whole, nor any branch of it. Unless we are talking about Christian Scientists.






If you are a member of the Church of Christian Science, after you get yourself vaccinated, look up at my sarcastic attitude and go "Oh, he's serious about what he believes but he is exaggerating quite a bit."  

[Semiremis]

Matt Pniewski

Semiremis

Good for him, he believes that freedom of religion is being infringed upon (something that needs to be protected) and he's speaking out against it...I take no issue with that.

In the article the Pope is quoted as saying: "Your country is well-known for its firm commitment to equality of opportunity for all members of society.

"Yet, as you have rightly pointed out, the effect of some of the legislation designed to achieve this goal has been to impose unjust limitations on the freedom of religious communities to act in accordance with their beliefs.

Like with what Widdecombe says in the article, the Catholic Church at least in regards to this subject is not trying to influence what non-catholics do and the secular world has no place trying to influence Catholic moral teachings. The Church shouldn't be forced to put into a position of authority those who stand against her teachings, and that's what the objection to the equality bill is all about based on what I've read.


Personally, I'd have to see the details before I could really say what I thought on this but a huge red flag goes up for me when freedom is gained by trampling on other freedom. If it's just the general workforce that's being affected by this then I see no reason for the Church to object.

The Catholic Church, and other religious organizations, feel threatened by Equality. Gay Rights, Women's Rights, Abortion Rights (which i seperate from Women's right for various reason).... Religious organizations have very set opinions on these things, and they think that if the Government takes an opposing stance, they are infringing on THEIR rights.


However, nobody is claiming the Church can't protest Abortion, or the Church can't exclude homosexual priests. They believe simply that the opposing stances are infringing on the rights of Christians. Fact is, there rights to believe what they believe and act on those is not in question.




Pretty much what the Pope is saying is "We want people to be bigots and hate people who are different", something he learned in his past as a Hitler Youth no doubt.

The Catholic Church is worried about being forced to put into positions of some authority those who take stances that go against Church teaching (as stated in the article), your other claims are just supposition.

You believe that the Church is against equality, I'm curious as to why that is so.