Baptism and Converting

[Namikikyo]

Okay, I have this friend who was baptized when she was avery little girl into the church of St.Micheals in Savannah, Georgia. It is not a Catholic church, but a few Catholics have her scared after a big talk with them at our school.

She for a while has been studying paganism and has always felt a calling to it, but just recently she informed me that there is a Catholic saying claiming, "Once and Catholic, always a Catholic." She is afraid that she will always be forced to be with a with a God she does not wish to follow because of her baptism as a child without consent.

I've heard of a few pagans who were baptized as children who created a de-baptism ritual or just don't think about it because it didn't mean anything to them.

I told her that I'm not sure about it, but that I'll ask you guys about it.

For naming purposes, let's call her "Rose".

All answers are appreciated and thanked in advanced.

 

[CuAnnan]

Baptism isn't the one in Catholicism you have to worry about.
Confirmation is.
Baptism is the welcoming of the new born into the family and Church.
Confirmation is where you oath yourself to TTG  

[Collowrath]

This is a conversation that I have constantly with my partner, who was baptised, confirmed, given communion, and the whole nine and half yards. Nowadays, he actively refuses to take part in anything religious because of some bad experiences he had involving Southern Jesus-camps and being beaten with switches and put in solitary confinement. sweatdrop

I keep telling him - you've made a commitment to your God. Honor it. I try not to push it farther though - I really just want him to reconcile himself in some way, rather than just plug his ears an scream whenever it's mentioned, or dismiss it with "I don't care/it didn't mean anything to me."

That said: I have a personal issue with holding someone to an agreement made for them when they are a child. That's why the confirmation is done when you're older - the assumption is that you'll pay attention to what they're telling you. At that point, I realize that it isn't always up to the person to do it. My partner is an example: his family forced him to go through with it.

Fortunately, my culture and faith inherently make allowances to go both ways, avoiding the Hell that many other pagans are in.

I don't know about a de-baptism ritual, but depending on the person's world-view and new faith, I'm sure there are a number of ways to go about nullifying the contract. One that I can think of off the top of my head is talking it out.

EDIT: Clarity.  

[TeaDidikai]

Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 2, Section 1, Chapter 1 Article 2, II. The Sacraments of the Church

1121 The three sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders confer, in addition to grace, a sacramental character or "seal" by which the Christian shares in Christ's priesthood and is made a member of the Church according to different states and functions. This configuration to Christ and to the Church, brought about by the Spirit, is indelible,40 it remains for ever in the Christian as a positive disposition for grace, a promise and guarantee of divine protection, and as a vocation to divine worship and to the service of the Church. Therefore these sacraments can never be repeated.

 

[Namikikyo]

CuAnnan

Baptism isn't the one in Catholicism you have to worry about.
Confirmation is.
Baptism is the welcoming of the new born into the family and Church.
Confirmation is where you oath yourself to TTG

That helps a lot. Thank you.

 

[TeaDidikai]

Namikikyo

That helps a lot. Thank you.

Except according to the Church, he's incorrect.

See, Baptism when entered sincerely, marks one as belonging to the god which the rite is enacted for.

Hence the citation of the Catechism above.  

[Namikikyo]

TeaDidikai

Namikikyo

That helps a lot. Thank you.

Except according to the Church, he's incorrect.

See, Baptism when entered sincerely, marks one as belonging to the god which the rite is enacted for.

Hence the citation of the Catechism above.

[

size=9]My computer is being extremely slow, so forgive me. ^ ^

But she was a child, and did not know the severity of this rite. And what about the rest of the ritual? What do they count for?

 

[too2sweet]

According to your quote though, it implies that there is an exchange of sorts, between the person taking the oath and God. What if you don't feel that God is holding up his end of the bargain (so to speak) - is the oath still binding if the other side (at least from their perspective) has already broken it?  

[Namikikyo]

TeaDidikai

Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 2, Section 1, Chapter 1 Article 2, II. The Sacraments of the Church

1121 The three sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders confer, in addition to grace, a sacramental character or "seal" by which the Christian shares in Christ's priesthood and is made a member of the Church according to different states and functions. This configuration to Christ and to the Church, brought about by the Spirit, is indelible,40 it remains for ever in the Christian as a positive disposition for grace, a promise and guarantee of divine protection, and as a vocation to divine worship and to the service of the Church. Therefore these sacraments can never be repeated.

Very helpful.

But what about this Confirmation? Without it, is is nulled? And how might one nullify this contract?

 

[Namikikyo]

Collowrath

This is a conversation that I have constantly with my partner, who was baptised, confirmed, given communion, and the whole nine and half yards. Nowadays, he actively refuses to take part in anything religious because of some bad experiences he had involving Southern Jesus-camps and being beaten with switches and put in solitary confinement. sweatdrop

I keep telling him - you've made a commitment to your God. Honor it. I try not to push it farther though - I really just want him to reconcile himself in some way, rather than just plug his ears an scream whenever it's mentioned, or dismiss it with "I don't care/it didn't mean anything to me."

That said: I have a personal issue with holding someone to an agreement made for them when they are a child. That's why the confirmation is done when you're older - the assumption is that you'll pay attention to what they're telling you. At that point, I realize that it isn't always up to the person to do it. My partner is an example: his family forced him to go through with it.

Fortunately, my culture and faith inherently make allowances to go both ways, avoiding the Hell that many other pagans are in.

I don't know about a de-baptism ritual, but depending on the person's world-view and new faith, I'm sure there are a number of ways to go about nullifying the contract. One that I can think of off the top of my head is talking it out.

EDIT: Clarity.

I could understand if she went through the whole sha-bang and would tell her the same thing, but she didn't.

I just feel really bad for people like your partner and my friend, I feel like it was very unfair for them to commit to an oath they didn't purposefully agree to. You know?

 

[Collowrath]

Namikikyo

I could understand if she went through the whole sha-bang and would tell her the same thing, but she didn't.

I just feel really bad for people like your partner and my friend, I feel like it was very unfair for them to commit to an oath they didn't purposefully agree to. You know?

Yes, I do. :/ I guess my only advice for her, in that case, is to try to connect with YHVH. Think of it this way: she's put in her application and been given a telephone interview. The guy promised her the job and all she needs to do is call back. However, if she calls back and he changed his mind or just doesn't answer, it wouldn't necessarily be reasonable to hold her to doing the job anyhow.  

[Bastemhet]

TeaDidikai

Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 2, Section 1, Chapter 1 Article 2, II. The Sacraments of the Church

1121 The three sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders confer, in addition to grace, a sacramental character or "seal" by which the Christian shares in Christ's priesthood and is made a member of the Church according to different states and functions. This configuration to Christ and to the Church, brought about by the Spirit, is indelible,40 it remains for ever in the Christian as a positive disposition for grace, a promise and guarantee of divine protection, and as a vocation to divine worship and to the service of the Church. Therefore these sacraments can never be repeated.

But what if the person hasn't gone through all of them, and in this case just the baptism?  

[Namikikyo]

Collowrath

Namikikyo

I could understand if she went through the whole sha-bang and would tell her the same thing, but she didn't.

I just feel really bad for people like your partner and my friend, I feel like it was very unfair for them to commit to an oath they didn't purposefully agree to. You know?

Yes, I do. :/ I guess my only advice for her, in that case, is to try to connect with YHVH. Think of it this way: she's put in her application and been given a telephone interview. The guy promised her the job and all she needs to do is call back. However, if she calls back and he changed his mind or just doesn't answer, it wouldn't necessarily be reasonable to hold her to doing the job anyhow.

I think I'll tell her that. Maybe she and Yeshua can work out an agreement like he will nullify the contract as long as she respects him and his followers. Plus, she isn't Catholic so maybe the rules don't apply as much to her.

So, This isn't as disheartening as I was afraid it would be. I'm glad she was only forced through the Baptism and not the rest like your partner, which I am very sorry for.

 

[maenad nuri]

Of course, you also have to think: how much weight do you place on a religion you do not practice any longer?

I also think that that passage speaks more to the nature of Baptism being one that does not need repeating, if you come back into the Church, for example.  

[TeaDidikai]

Namikikyo

But she was a child, and did not know the severity of this rite.

Why would it matter if she understood it or not? This isn't some Civil Law where suddenly Age of Majority has sway just because it's a mortal ideal. This is a pact with a deity who has their own rules.

Quote:

And what about the rest of the ritual? What do they count for?

You mean the other sacraments?
As for what they count for, Holy Orders isn't for everyone. Confirmation can be completed and strengthen one's relationship within the Church, but it doesn't nullify the initial oath.

Quote:

But what about this Confirmation? Without it, is is nulled? And how might one nullify this contract?

As to how someone might null the contract, opt to become an oathbreaker and accept that you are going to go to hell. ~shrugs~

Quote:

I could understand if she went through the whole sha-bang and would tell her the same thing, but she didn't.

I just feel really bad for people like your partner and my friend, I feel like it was very unfair for them to commit to an oath they didn't purposefully agree to. You know?

When people talk about fairness and deities, I always wonder by what measure they understand fairness.

Sure- when other beings, Otherlings, Infernals etc don't play by mortal rules, we just nod and accept that such is their nature- but if a Deity does something that isn't in line with our understanding of Civil Law in first world countries, suddenly it's bad.

Quote:

I think I'll tell her that. Maybe she and Yeshua can work out an agreement like he will nullify the contract as long as she respects him and his followers. Plus, she isn't Catholic so maybe the rules don't apply as much to her.

So, This isn't as disheartening as I was afraid it would be. I'm glad she was only forced through the Baptism and not the rest like your partner, which I am very sorry for.

Tradition please. Once we know the denomination, we can better address the situation.

too2sweet

According to your quote though, it implies that there is an exchange of sorts, between the person taking the oath and God. What if you don't feel that God is holding up his end of the bargain (so to speak) - is the oath still binding if the other side (at least from their perspective) has already broken it?

Why would your conjecture on what you want be more valid than the terms in which the god grants his promises?

Bastemhat

But what if the person hasn't gone through all of them, and in this case just the baptism?

What about them? They all serve the same function and confirmation, while strengthening the relationship isn't required to garner the effects promised. That's why Baptism is perhaps the most important sacrament.

Any of the other sacraments can be missed, and you'll still be part of the Church. But a sincere baptism is the gate to union with the god of the Church.

maenad nuri

Of course, you also have to think: how much weight do you place on a religion you do not practice any longer?

Why would a lack of practice be enough to null an oath?

Quote:

I also think that that passage speaks more to the nature of Baptism being one that does not need repeating, if you come back into the Church, for example.

I'd agree, if the whole first half wasn't there to demonstrate the nature of the sacraments. If it was just the last part- sure. But it isn't written that way.