Mythological Revisionism

[TeaDidikai]

Snakes on the Mother ******** Astral PLANE!

But in all seriousness, we know that a snake isn't a dragon. We know that a platypus isn't a moldy duck.

This crops up all the time.

So let's list the common mythological revisions- things that modern people think of as one thing, when historically they simply weren't, and our refutation for the modern misinformation.  

[Kashaku-Tatsu]

Didnt take long to dig this information up, but you demanded and I refound:

-Off of sacred-text's Babylonian myth section's entry on Tiamat-
as Great Mother, 106; in Creation legend, 138; the dragon's heart, 147 n.; body of forms sky and earth, 147; as the dragon of the deep, 151;


The following are a few exerts from "The Seven Tablets of Creation":

-from the preface-
" these the most important is the fine text of the Fourth Tablet of the Creation Series, containing the account of the fight between the god Marduk and the dragon Tiamat"

-from the second tablet-
"24. "With splendour she hath decked them, she hath made them of lofty stature.

25. "Whoever beholdeth them is overcome by terror,"

26. "Their bodies rear up and none can withstand their attack.

27. "She hath set up vipers, and dragons, and the

28. "And hurricanes and raging hounds, and scorpion-men,

29. "And mighty tempests, and fish-men and rams;

30. "They bear cruel weapons, without fear of the fight."

-from the fourth tablet-
" 44. His hand brought the snare near the bow 1 of his father Anu.
45. He created the evil wind, the hostile wind, the storm, the tempest,
46. the four winds, the seven winds, the whirlwind, the unending wind;
47. and he caused the winds which he had created to issue forth, the seven of them,
48. confounding the dragon Tiamat, as they swept after him."

Also
Origins of the Ouroboros

The serpent or dragon eating its own tail has survived from antiquity and can be traced back to Ancient Egypt, circa 1600 B.C.E.

From there it passed to Phoenicia and then to the Greek philosophers, who gave it the name Ouroboros ("the tail-devourer").

For the helluvit:

On Chinese Dragons:
Chinese dragons are legendary creatures in Chinese mythology and folklore, with mythic counterparts among Japanese, Korean, and Vietnamese dragons. In Chinese art, dragons are typically portrayed as long, scaled, serpentine creatures with four legs. In contrast to European dragons that are considered evil, Chinese dragons traditionally symbolize potent and auspicious powers, particularly control over water, rainfall, and floods. In yin and yang terminology, a dragon is yang (male) and complements a yin (female) fenghuang "Chinese phoenix".

Historically, the dragon was the symbol of the Emperor of China. In the Zhou Dynasty, the 5-clawed dragon was assigned to the Son of Heaven, the 4-clawed dragon to the Zhuhou (seigneur), and the 3-clawed dragon to the Daifu. In the Qing Dynasty, the 5-clawed dragon was assigned to represent the Emperor while the 4-clawed and 3-clawed dragons were assigned to the commoners. The dragon in the Qing Dynasty appeared on national flags.[1]

In Chinese daily language, excellent and outstanding people are compared to the dragon while incapable people with no achievements are compared with other, disesteemed creatures, such as the worm. A number of Chinese proverbs and idioms feature references to the dragon, for example: "Hoping one's son will become a dragon" (望子成龍, i.e. be as successful and powerful as a dragon).

Animalism Dragons; (I hestitate to use Shamanism here cause I don't want to spark a debate on it's original use as term for baltic spiritual healers)
In animalism style religions large land reptiles like iguana, komodo, serpents, etc are seen as earthly embodiments of dragons.  

[Kashaku-Tatsu]

Maybe I should have defined astral plane in the post as well....

If the gods are on this physical plane and not on a different plane with access to here then they would be walking around in plane sight flesh and blood. But being that they are not, they have ascended into another plane, the summerlands, the afterlife, heaven, where-ever the said deity went after their lore'd life on our planet.

Maybe my time spent working with animalism style practices has hindered my terminology and cause me to define everything I write. I thought planer knowledge was common knowledge, others can seem to understand what I'm tryin to convey even if they say "not the term I'd use but I get what you are saying".

And I never assigned a deity to any said job, you have put those words in my fingers.... I have mentioned a few times in that post that I was writing from work and used quick language where I could save time. I don't care what culture you look at all the deities have a nitch they fit into or something they over-look. It's nothing just with me or the many groups I know.

Being that Diana Akopyan has always been known as the goddess of the hunt, being associated with wild animals and woodland, and also of the moon; I can safely assume you wouldn't see her overseeing flower growth in someone's house or inspiring an artist (unless it's a piece of art considering animals or nature). Is this lore on her a human placing a deity into a role?  

[TeaDidikai]

Kashaku-Tatsu

Didnt take long to dig this information up, but you demanded and I refound:

-Off of sacred-text's Babylonian myth section's entry on Tiamat-
as Great Mother, 106; in Creation legend, 138; the dragon's heart, 147 n.; body of forms sky and earth, 147; as the dragon of the deep, 151;


The following are a few exerts from "The Seven Tablets of Creation":

-from the preface-
" these the most important is the fine text of the Fourth Tablet of the Creation Series, containing the account of the fight between the god Marduk and the dragon Tiamat"

-from the second tablet-
"24. "With splendour she hath decked them, she hath made them of lofty stature.

25. "Whoever beholdeth them is overcome by terror,"

26. "Their bodies rear up and none can withstand their attack.

27. "She hath set up vipers, and dragons, and the

28. "And hurricanes and raging hounds, and scorpion-men,

29. "And mighty tempests, and fish-men and rams;

30. "They bear cruel weapons, without fear of the fight."

-from the fourth tablet-
" 44. His hand brought the snare near the bow 1 of his father Anu.
45. He created the evil wind, the hostile wind, the storm, the tempest,
46. the four winds, the seven winds, the whirlwind, the unending wind;
47. and he caused the winds which he had created to issue forth, the seven of them,
48. confounding the dragon Tiamat, as they swept after him."

Yep, and if any of that translation wasn't a complete bastardization, you might have an argument.

The doctuments that actually came out of the Library of Ashurbanipal clearly do not support the bastardized European concept of a dragon.

Not a single inscription on any of the Enûma Eliš could be accurately translated as "dragon", but as serpent.

It's written in stone. wink

It's a bit intellectually dishonest at best to change it just to suit the fancy of European archeologists who don't know how to tell a story in any language but their own.

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Also
Origins of the Ouroboros

The serpent or dragon eating its own tail has survived from antiquity and can be traced back to Ancient Egypt, circa 1600 B.C.E.

From there it passed to Phoenicia and then to the Greek philosophers, who gave it the name Ouroboros ("the tail-devourer").

Jus so we're clear, I cite the original Greek with the correct translation and you think this translation is going to cut it on your word alone?

Quote:

For the helluvit:

On Chinese Dragons:
Chinese dragons are legendary creatures in Chinese mythology and folklore, with mythic counterparts among Japanese, Korean, and Vietnamese dragons. In Chinese art, dragons are typically portrayed as long, scaled, serpentine creatures with four legs. In contrast to European dragons that are considered evil, Chinese dragons traditionally symbolize potent and auspicious powers, particularly control over water, rainfall, and floods. In yin and yang terminology, a dragon is yang (male) and complements a yin (female) fenghuang "Chinese phoenix".

Historically, the dragon was the symbol of the Emperor of China. In the Zhou Dynasty, the 5-clawed dragon was assigned to the Son of Heaven, the 4-clawed dragon to the Zhuhou (seigneur), and the 3-clawed dragon to the Daifu. In the Qing Dynasty, the 5-clawed dragon was assigned to represent the Emperor while the 4-clawed and 3-clawed dragons were assigned to the commoners. The dragon in the Qing Dynasty appeared on national flags.[1]

In Chinese daily language, excellent and outstanding people are compared to the dragon while incapable people with no achievements are compared with other, disesteemed creatures, such as the worm. A number of Chinese proverbs and idioms feature references to the dragon, for example: "Hoping one's son will become a dragon" (望子成龍, i.e. be as successful and powerful as a dragon).

Welcome to Culture Rape 101. Just because Europeans study and bastardize Asian culture, that doesn't suddenly make said Asian culture European.

This is a very specific form of racism, just in case you are interested.

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Animalism Dragons; (I hestitate to use Shamanism here cause I don't want to spark a debate on it's original use as term for baltic spiritual healers)

They weren't Baltic, unless suddently the Baltic Sea extends all the way to the Pacific Ocean.

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In animalism style religions large land reptiles like iguana, komodo, serpents, etc are seen as earthly embodiments of dragons.

Speaking for all otherworld traditions now are we?

Really- what's next? Murray?  

[Collowrath]

Well, off the top of my head I can think of Lada in Slavic mythology (the subject of which seems to keep coming up!), who almost certainly never existed, coming out of a Russian misinterpretation of a Serbo-Croation folk song. Granted, as I'm reminded of constantly, I am no expert.

There's a lot of historical revisionism in the Slavic heathen movement, as far as I've seen. But then again, the hard evidence can be woefully scant in some aspects and I can't necessarily blame them for relying on lots and lots of UPG.  

[TeaDidikai]

Kashaku-Tatsu

If the gods are on this physical plane and not on a different plane with access to here then they would be walking around in plane sight flesh and blood.

Who says they don't?

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But being that they are not,

I'm sure any number of people who have met their gods would be most interested in hearing your proof of this.

I bet that those who follow Yeshua might have something to say as well.

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Maybe my time spent working with animalism style practices has hindered my terminology and cause me to define everything I write. I thought planer knowledge was common knowledge, others can seem to understand what I'm tryin to convey even if they say "not the term I'd use but I get what you are saying".

I get what you're saying. I just also know how arrogant and ignorant it is to try and speak for every single religious tradition.

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I don't care what culture you look at all the deities have a nitch they fit into or something they over-look.

Mine don't. Stop trying to rape my culture to fit into your limited understanding of world religions.
It's insulting.
My gods don't "fit a nitch". They are individuals.

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Being that Diana Akopyan has always been known as the goddess of the hunt,

Really, this is where we start to see the problems with Appendix Deity Lists.

Just as a reference, the classic depiction of Diana of Versailles was with a deer.

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I can safely assume you wouldn't see her overseeing flower growth in someone's house or inspiring an artist (unless it's a piece of art considering animals or nature). Is this lore on her a human placing a deity into a role?

Yep. Mostly by way of ignorance. Her mythology is far greater than you are giving her credit for- I mean for ******** sake, one could argue that in her modern witchcult as described by Leland, she would be most at home in the hearts of the Stregheria as they call to her for either of those.

But then, it's their relationship with their goddess.  

[TeaDidikai]

Collowrath

Well, off the top of my head I can think of Lada in Slavic mythology (the subject of which seems to keep coming up!), who almost certainly never existed, coming out of a Russian misinterpretation of a Serbo-Croation folk song. Granted, as I'm reminded of constantly, I am no expert.

There's a lot of historical revisionism in the Slavic heathen movement, as far as I've seen. But then again, the hard evidence can be woefully scant in some aspects and I can't necessarily blame them for relying on lots and lots of UPG.

The flip side of that though is the fact that the folk songs are the primary source texts for most of Slavic Reconstructionism, and then you run into the problem that there wasn't a collected work of mythology for the Slavic peoples until just before State Conversion to Christendom.  

[Collowrath]

TeaDidikai

Collowrath

Well, off the top of my head I can think of Lada in Slavic mythology (the subject of which seems to keep coming up!), who almost certainly never existed, coming out of a Russian misinterpretation of a Serbo-Croation folk song. Granted, as I'm reminded of constantly, I am no expert.

There's a lot of historical revisionism in the Slavic heathen movement, as far as I've seen. But then again, the hard evidence can be woefully scant in some aspects and I can't necessarily blame them for relying on lots and lots of UPG.

The flip side of that though is the fact that the folk songs are the primary source texts for most of Slavic Reconstructionism, and then you run into the problem that there wasn't a collected work of mythology for the Slavic peoples until just before State Conversion to Christendom.

Unfortunately for Lada, it's simply the feminine form of Lado, and the confusion comes from a Russian man changing a Serbian word from "God" to "Deity" by removing gender and making it ambiguous.

Can't necessarily write off the idea altogether though - a huge number of Slavic gods came in similar pairs, usually some sort of dual opposite, such as Jarilo and Morena, the two Gods who are really the only Slavic Pagan Gods other than Mokosh that really enter into my practice.  

[Kashaku-Tatsu]

The Diana thing was an example... I know Roman pagans who follow her or at least show her respect in rituals, so I know there is more to her than just the hunt. But either way hunt, protector, etc still dont show her helping flowers grow, that is another deities/beings concern.

If yaweh is in the physical plane, i emphasis physical, then I would like for him to come here, purchase something from my establishment, so I may touch and speak to him... aside from that you will not convince me he's here on the physical plane. If it's a feeling, saw in meditation, trance or heard in your head it's not of this physical plane.

btw this may not look like the western idea of a dragon (also not very serpent like either), here is Tiamat:





If you really want to argue European bastardizations of Sumerian texts, I supposed you can read Sumerian and didn't find it on a site where it shows what a linguist thinks the language to mean. Anything written in english is going to be a linguist's version of what it would have translated to. Aside from going back in time and learning their language or seeing the deities at the beginning of time, we really wont know if Tiamat was serpent as your resource says or if it really translates to dragon like a majority of the other translations.  

[rmcdra]

I must point out and reiterate this. The Ouroboros is a serpent. The Gnostic traditions that use the Ouroboros as their symbol agree that it is a serpent because it is the serpent that brought wisdom to humanity. It is not a dragon.

Also Gods can walk this plane. Various mythologies such as Greek/Roman mythology describe the gods walking among mortals. Hell Zeus even raped a few girls. There's also traditions that teach about gods taking mortal forms such as the concept of avatars.  

[TeaDidikai]

Collowrath

Unfortunately for Lada, it's simply the feminine form of Lado, and the confusion comes from a Russian man changing a Serbian word from "God" to "Deity" by removing gender and making it ambiguous.

Can't necessarily write off the idea altogether though - ...

That's all I'm saying. wink

Kashaku-Tatsu

The Diana thing was an example...

You're right. It is an example, it clearly demonstrates how shallow your understanding of pagan deities is.

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But either way hunt, protector, etc still dont show her helping flowers grow, that is another deities/beings concern.

She's a deity. She can do what she damn well pleases.

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If yaweh is in the physical plane, i emphasis physical, then I would like for him to come here, purchase something from my establishment, so I may touch and speak to him... aside from that you will not convince me he's here on the physical plane. If it's a feeling, saw in meditation, trance or heard in your head it's not of this physical plane.

Who the hell said anything about yaweh? Who the ******** is yaweh anyway. At best, you might insinuate that we were talking about YHVH, that said, it makes no commentary on timing of his presence, nor does it address the fact that I was talking about Yeshua.

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btw this may not look like the western idea of a dragon (also not very serpent like either), here is Tiamat:

When you don't actually back up the claim that this is Tiamat with any acient text, you realize you are pulling this out of poor revisionism, yes?

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If you really want to argue European bastardizations of Sumerian texts, I supposed you can read Sumerian and didn't find it on a site where it shows what a linguist thinks the language to mean.

As a matter of fact, I can muddle my way through the cuneiform on the fifth Enûma Eliš tablet.

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Anything written in english is going to be a linguist's version of what it would have translated to.

And some translations are better than others.

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Aside from going back in time and learning their language or seeing the deities at the beginning of time, we really wont know if Tiamat was serpent as your resource says or if it really translates to dragon like a majority of the other translations.

Actually, they can know. See, thanks to the tablets recovered at Sultantepe, including a second copy of the fifth tablet, we have a description of her that is the same as the Enûma Eliš tablet. Not only that, but even though it lists her as giving birth to dragons, it's part of a huge list, including serpents, creatures that were partially human and part scorpion and a host of other creatures.  

[IH_Zero]

That picture of Tiamat looks more like a gryphon than anything else. A gryphon with the head of a lion rather than an eagle, though.