[Discussion] History, Ancient Literature and Mythology

[User_2629207]

"Seriousness is the refuge of the shallow."

You'd be surprised by the amount of homoeroticism you can find in a history book. Not to mention classic pieces like Homer's Iliad and the Odyssey, and other myths, stories and legends.

For example - have you seen Oliver Stone's film Alexander? Notice anything about Alexander and Hephaistion? Or, say, Bagoas? smile Yup. They were very close. Alexander often compared his and Hephaistions relationship to that of Achilles and Patrocles - who, as you may or may not know, were sort of beyond friendly. Though depending on who you ask, they may be a pair of reeeeeally close friends, or practically as lovey-dovey as a newlywed couple.

The relationship of Gilgamesh and Enkidu in the Epic of Gilgamesh has also been debated. I haven't personally read it just yet, but I'd like to.

Anyhow, discuss! Notice anything interesting? Maybe in history, or literature classes? Did you cry as much as I did watching Alexander?

- Oscar Wilde.

 

[No Gambling in Paradix]

Very true. For example, in ancient China and Japan, homoeroticism was pretty much accepted, and in some cases, even approved of. The stigmas against homosexuality actually weren't that bad until (not to sound racist here) Europeans exacted their influence.  

[User_2629207]

"Seriousness is the refuge of the shallow."

I think there's always been issues like that, when a country starts to mingle with another...a similar thing happened to the Persian empire, they were invaded by the Arabs who brought Islam and new sets of laws, values etc.

For example, many of the emperors had male courtesans (do you still call them that if they're male?) in their harem. Homosexuality or at least bisexuality (most people back in the day were bi) was common in the ancient world...

- Oscar Wilde.

 

[Lady Gyrfalcon]

Aa, ja, I heard that there was a somewhat similar occurence with many African countries.
And then, paradoxically, you have place like Holland, which were historically considered direly strict (as in, death sentences) and are now considered to be very, well, "open" in regards to many things, including same-sex relationships.

The Romans did more or less follow in the footsteps of the Greeks, wouldn't you say? I mean, Julius Caesar was at one point called "Every woman's husband and every man's wife."

There was a certain participant in Ireland's Easter Rising, one Roger Casement, who diaries are subject of some controversy. On his trial for attempting to supply armaments to the rebels, many of his supporters deserted him because these dairies; they apparently contained entries that showed him having had quite a number of relations with other men, and this was 1916 after all. They actually remain a source of controversy to this very day, as it is debated whether they were the genuine article, or if it was all a ploy on the part of the British Army to defame his name. (They already had him on charges of treason, though. ) So there's a somewhat interesting tidbit for you.
(Actually, I more or less only have fragments of stuff to post, to be honest.)

If there's ever a reference to somebody dying a carnation green, you can be almost sure that a) it has no significance whatsoever/has to do with St. Patrick's day, or b) they're about gay/bi/whatever as Oscar Wilde. It supposedly was a sort of secret code used in some of the circles he moved in. (Many sites say it was, the Guardian.co.uk says it wasn't.) Either way, the Dublin Gay Theatre Festival actually used it in their advertising.

You know, I've rather started moving away from the actual point of the thread, haven't it? sweatdrop Hope it was somewhat interesting, anyway.  

[For-Chan Cookie]

I didn't see the Alexander movie and I don't really plan on it but I did start reading a book about Alexander called Fire From Heaven by Mary Renault. It's about Alexander as he grows up and talks about his close relationship with Hephaistion. I wrote some fic for it ninja The second book she wrote, The Persian Boy, is about Bagoas, but I haven't read it.  

[User_2629207]

"Seriousness is the refuge of the shallow."

@Lady Gyr: There's the Red Tie, as well, but a lot of people seem to have forgotten about that particular code xD which amuses me greatly.

@For-Chan: I started reading that! I managed to force my library into ordering it but I had to move away so now I have to find a store that sells it... I love Bagoas, he's epic. He sort of reminds me of Madame Pompadour, in the way that he managed to have some control over the court 8D

- Oscar Wilde.

 

[Lady Gyrfalcon]

Yeah, I know of the red tie. (Which is part of why any arguement for Phoenix's tie being red instead of pink because it's more "manly" makes me want to giggle. At the back of my mind it always "If the game was set it a different time, a couple of decades back, this would be even more hilarious.")

Who's this Bagoas you keep talking about? Somehow, I've managed to never hear of him before.  

[User_2629207]

"Seriousness is the refuge of the shallow."

Persian Eunuch Courtesan (do you say that for men too? I have no idea...) Who Alexander found in the harem of Darius, and decided to take home with him.

Lol, I can just imagine Edgeworth's reaction when he first meets Wright in court xxxxD

- Oscar Wilde.

 

[Lady Gyrfalcon]

Ohhh. (I don't know, eh! But I didn't know of Bagoas.)
I'm reading Ovid's Metamorphoses right now, awesome way to brush up on my classical mythology, with a strangely readable translation compared to the average Greek or Roman classic. (Seriously, if you've read/tried to read the Illiad or the Odyssey, you'll know what I'm talking about in terms of regular levels of readability.)
Anyway, back on point, book ten is, I kid you not, thematically almost exactly one quarter about the "boys whom the gods have loved." It had a short tale I hadn't heard before, of Cyparissus.
(To summarise, strangely stupid boy, "darling of Phoebus Apollo", liked cavorting around the forests with a sacred stag, accidentally kills stag with a spear, Apollo attempts to console him, Cyparissus continues to wail and cry over the stag, asks to be left to mourn 'til the end of time, gets turned into a cyprus tree, Apollo is kind of sad.) I read it pretty shallowly, but I'm seeing really crazy subtext to the whole thing now that I've thought about it enough to condense it. ._. WTF-levels of odd. Although it's the Metamorphoses, so I suppose it's pretty par the course.
Aside from that, there's Ganymede's scrap of a story and then that of Hyacinthus, which I'm sure you know already. Although Ovid's version of the Hyacinthus story was actually emotive enough to make me kind of sad. D: (As opposed to the average "Oh, it's a mortal who hung around with a god and died, how unusual.")
Ovid also throws in this bit at the start about how after Eurydice was sent back to the underworld again, Orpheus was so bereft that he refused the love of women and took up the Thracian practice of sleeping with young/immature males. (This was to bring in the setting for Orpheus singing about "boys whom the gods have loved and girls who have been inspired to a frenzy of lawless passion", so it was, but my eyebrows still went up upon reading it.)
And yes, the translator's for serious notes on the poem also sum this up more succintly than I at the start of book 10, if you were wondering.
There's other random scraps about lovers and things in different books, but I honestly couldn't be bothered rooting them out from in between everything else. (Would make no sense at all without context of the story they're lifted from, anyway.)

...There's no real way to put all that in TL;DR form, is there? In any case, I am very content in my ownership of a Penguin Classics version of the poem. (Back nearer to the source of mythological tales, whoo yeah.) And someone could really make a comic out of the Hyacinthus story. Allowing for the fact that throwing discus was done naked in Ancient Greece, though.


I actually almost went and made a prompt in the PW kink meme over the red tie, once. XD Then I decided against because I hadn't filled out the equivalent number of requests to justify making a prompt.  

[Killer_Kiwi_XD]

ok ok so this is about myths right?! and schools arnt supposed to teach homosexuality right??!!Let me say just this....


THE STORY OF DAMON AND PYTHIAS IS THE MOST HOMOSEXUAL STORY I HAVE EVER READ! beside actully reaching into the realm of yaoi...at the end it even say's they EMBRACED eachother!!!!! I was blushing about five shades of red infront of my teacher and he could figure out why!!

Im sorry I had to say something about this...dont mind my tottal freak out!  

[Lady Gyrfalcon]

Well, I don't know whether or not schools are supposed to bring up the subject/teach it where you are, but in the school I attend, it's pretty much at the teacher's discretion whether they mention/bring up homosexual themes when it's relevant to the lesson. *Le shrug.* It came up at some point in English, my teacher wanted to discuss whatever it was, but she got frustrated and gave up.
My religion teacher, I remember, told us to go see I Now Pronounce You Chuck And Larry - a terrible, terrible movie, but I can understand her good intentions.
Anyway!

You need to get your hands on some small book of Greek myths or something, dear! Srsly, it's like a mythological soap opera/drama, only far, far better.
This is what the history for kids website says about Greek friendships. Pftft, I think I love it, if only for using such matter of fact language.

I am reminded of Hamlet (everything relates back to Hamlet for me these days, we're covering it right now) offhandedly calling Horatio "o Damon dear" when they're talking about the play in the play.
More on Hamlet later, yo.  

[User_2629207]

"Seriousness is the refuge of the shallow."

We're studying Ancient Greek literature in class (again), and we were supposed to write a modernized version of the Iliad.
IT BECAME TOTAL PORN.
Then we had to read it to our class.
DEATH.

A girl in my class asked the teacher if Patroclus was really Achilles' cousin, and I was terribly tempted to interrupt, but I didn't, and I sort of regret it now.

@Killer_Kiwi_XD: Dude! I just looked that up and the cartoon film, Sinbad, is totally based on that story!
WTF, THEY'RE ENTIRELY DIFFERENT CHARACTERS.
I always thought there were sparks flying between them in the movie... this explains it all...

- Oscar Wilde.

 

[Jacob Reynolds]

The only thing I remember about the Epic of Gilgamesh is the sorta-yaoi. Kinda sad to admit, but I did read it two whole years ago. I remember the Gilgamesh and Enkido wrestling over something when they met and Gilgamesh talking for pages upon pages when Enkido dies. crying

As for the Iliad- Achilles's morning when Patricales dies is really sad and disturbing. After my research paper two years ago, i would definitely say they had some sort of romantic connection. There was entire army of Greek fighters that fought along side with another man they loved. They were admired throughout Greece. They fought amazingly since they each had someone to care about. heart

If you're curious, the research paper was on the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy.  

[IxBlaccatxI]

I remember in some book that I read it said that ti greeks a long time ago being in a play was manly so men played girls. I read this modern historical fiction book (forgot tittle) the two actors on stage had to kiss. Homoseduality was never a bad thing. It is just that the modern people get the more racist the are  

[User_2629207]

"Seriousness is the refuge of the shallow."

Uh, race and sexuality are completely different things. If you dislike homosexuality you're not racist, you're homophobic and to an extent, sexist.

Anyway, back on topic, the actors almost always wore masks so their lips didn't really touch :<

- Oscar Wilde.