Is there any other wisdom other than the Bible?

[Priestley]

Fushigi and I had a discussion the other evening about the possibility of God's wisdom being found in places other than the Bible and whether such wisdom is equally inspired by God.

This led to good lines of questioning.

• What makes a particular version of the Bible (whether or not it includes certain books/writings) inspired by God?
  
  • Would this mean that other versions of the Bible with other books compiled in it or missing from it were not inspired by God?
    
  • Does one part of the Bible which does not contain God's inspiration contaminate the entire Bible in which it features?
  
  
• If we must test all other information given to us in our daily lives for truth to know what to keep and what to dismiss, should we accept the Bible (whichever version) as the whole truth or should it be subject to our own analysis, keeping and discarding its statements and logic according to reason or some other criterion?
  
• If we find wisdom elsewhere other than the Bible, whether it is through human thought, experiment and endeavour, or, through philosophy, theology and religion, should we consider it inspired by God?
  
• How do you test what fellow Christians and people of other or no religion say?

Please voice your thoughts in this thread. smile  

[freelance lover]

I believe God finds way to guide us and give us wisdom outside of the Bible. I've read a variety of religious texts from other faiths that say strikingly similar things to the Bible. One of my favorites being a verse from the Upanishad, a Hindu text that basically says God is the Lord of Lord, infinite, eternal, loving, and supreme. I believe God can speak to those who aren't Christians as well.

I also believe there's some sort of value to be drawn from most if not all versions of the Bible. As much as I mock the Message Bible, it is a good introductory Bible for many younger people and can pave the way to further study in more scholarly texts. Even if it's not a perfect translation, it can still set the spark and bring people to God.

I also believe God is present and active in the lives of everyone in small ways on a daily basis. I believe he can impart wisdom to us through other, experiences, and prayer.

Even when it comes to reading the Bible, we lose so much and read it so differently than people did during Jesus' time. We live in a completely different culture, have a completely different language, and we interpret many things completely differently. If we really want to be technical about it, everyone read the Bible from a different point of view and social location, making the meaning of the Bible different for all of us. I think this also contributes to how God speaks to us. What I need to hear from one particular verse may not be what someone else needs to hear.  

[Ixor Firebadger]

I think it's possible to find wisdom without the Bible, but that wisdom would be backed up by it. I think that the Bible is the ultimate source of wisdom. God didn't give us the commands he gave just to be some sort of taskmaster. He gave us those commands for our own good and that following them greatly improves ones quality of life.

Ultimately, we should measure our own wisdom to that which is found in the Bible, that source of wisdom that God gave us.

To do it the other way, to compare the Bible to our wisdom shows a lack of trust in what was given us by God and to find ourselves relying on our own human understanding as opposed to God's divine wisdom.

As far as what is considered 'God-inspired', I really have no answer for that other than that the Bible says that we should not add anything or take away from his Word.

I'm a little fuzzy as to the history of things that people claim were taken away at the behest of human logic, there are different institutions that say different things on that and who's to know which to trust. I find it likely that they all have their own agendas so that's one of those things where I pretty much just go with my gut and my gut says to take the Bible we have today.  

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

Once Priestley sees my comment here, I'm gonna move this to the Bible discussion subforum.

During the course of our discussion, I came to realize that I had a few issues concerning the Bible and its supposedly inherent wisdom as granted by God.

First of all, nowhere in the Bible itself does it say that the Bible is actually the Word of God. We've been calling it the Word of God for hundreds of years, but only because it's been believed that the words contained within were actually inspired from God Himself. So where does this idea come from that the Bible is the Word of God. Not only that (and here I'm about to go into some circular reasoning, which continues to make my head hurt), but doesn't the Bible say that Jesus is the Word of God?

So, if the Bible is not the Word of God, what does that mean for what we believe? We know nothing of God's character in the past, and we know nothing of Jesus, aside from that He was a man who lived about 2000 years ago. If it is the Word of God, then it should be perfect, and it should contain uncontested wisdom. If there is wisdom outside the Bible that contradicts the wisdom found inside the Bible, either one or the other is wrong (generally speaking). It either is or is not okay for homosexuals to have relationships and/or get married. It either is or is not okay to have sex outside of marriage. It either is or is not okay to terminate a pregnancy for any and all reasons. If the Bible is the Word of God, then no other source of wisdom should be considered equal with it, but there are far better sources of wisdom than the Bible, I have found.

Admittedly, my recent questioning of the Bible has led me to a bit of a crisis of faith, since I have based my entire knowledge and understanding of God on the Bible. If none but God are infallible, then I find it hard to trust any human being's interpretation of what they say is God, even my own. This is where I begin to see and understand Lethkhar's need for Jesus to just show up and spoonfeed me like He did with His disciples. Or at least some other surefire manifestation of God.  

[freelance lover]

@fushigi: Glad I'm not the only one questioning the supremacy of the Bible... The best way I've found to combat this mini faith crisis I've been having is to believe in the spirit of the Bible more than the literal words. I do believe I've explained this before, but basically it comes down to understanding why that was put in the Bible and understanding how people in Biblical times would read it, and then applying the intention to my life.

For instance, the dietary laws in the OT existed mainly for sanitation purposes. We have better sanitation now, so that is null and void, but the laws were put in there because God had an intention with them. In this case, I believe it would be because God wants us to be healthy, meaning I would apply this by taking care of my body. Basically, I'm more after the why than the literal meaning.  

[Priestley]

Since it doesn't discuss actual Bible passages, it would be strange to put this in Bible discussion -- but it does talk about the Bible as a whole, so it might qualify under that rule. As I'm uncertain as to what defines Bible discussion and regular discussion, I left it here for people to do with it whatever they felt like.

Nevertheless, I've seen it, so you can move it. smile  

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

The sticky explains what should go in here.

Anyway.

@Liz: But how can anyone be sure what the spirit of the Bible is? That's my point. How do I know the Bible was inspired by God? Because the Bible says so? Isn't that like a person saying to you that they never lie, and you asking how you can believe them, and them answering, "Because I never lie"? Is there any outside evidence of the Bible's truth, wisdom, and possibly having been inspired by God? Where do I find it?  

[Xandris]

Mm, I thought this was a great topic for the main forum as well, but *shrug*.

The Bible does a lot all at once. It's a murder mystery, a romance, a history book, a book of rules and regulations. Is it the ultimate answer book? Perhaps. Perhaps not. Even if it's not, it's an excellent starting point. If you can find wisdom in secular things like The Matrix as a random example, is it because that itself spoke to you, or beause it's leading back to something you've read in the Bible? Even if the Bible isn't the ultimate authority, it's still a very important book.

The Bible does say to test everything... including itself. The Holy Spirit has given us all wisdom. Most times it's still locked away until we see or do or read something that rings true, and we realize we've known this, on some level, all along. It's like a new Christian who has never read the Bible, and then when he/she does at last, finding that those feelings and unconscious knowledge are finally being put into words.

You know the Bible is true, and inspired by God. Deep down you do. You're just looking for something to confirm it, something other than your own feelings, yes? Next time something speaks to you, whether it be a book or a movie or simply nature itself, ask yourself WHY it's speaking to you. Is it that thing alone, or does it correlate to what the Bible tells you?  

[Priestley]

Science speaks to me without pointing me to the Bible. Good science stands up fine under my examination without the Bible. In fact, in my experience, science has a far better success rate under testing than when the same testing is applied to the Bible and matters of faith. Any time the Bible mentions anything scientific, it is a confirmation of things that can be logically reasoned to have been possible before its mention in the Bible (the Earth being spherical even before the Bible mentions that it is a "circle") according to science. Whether one wants to slap a sticker on it and say God gave us knowledge, the Spirit gave us wisdom, etc. is entirely up to you, but science does just fine without the Bible.

However, something like 'The Matrix' -- as with a lot of popular culture -- keys into Biblical themes and we recognise such themes because they have been referenced in our lives in one way or another. Churches have existed since I became aware. My mother used to mention God to me. I have experienced Christmas every year. It is difficult to escape these things. There are also themes in the Bible that we recognise as previously existing cultural themes: champions, heroes, the supernatural, the impossible, love, familial relationships, gods, demigods, evil, punishment, suffering, natural disaster, etc.. If you want to argue that all these things point to the central idea of Jesus and God and the Bible, then that is also up to you, but I believe there is wisdom equal to that provided in the Bible in texts not of Abrahamic origin because I have tested it and found it so.  

[Xandris]

Priestley

I believe there is wisdom equal to that provided in the Bible in texts not of Abrahamic origin because I have tested it and found it so.

Which is exactly as it should be. My previous post wasn't trying to say that the Bible is the only wisdom, only to ask whether your 'newfound' wisdom was something that connected back to it or not. Otherwise I feel the wisdom is still Biblical in nature, wherever you found it.  

[Priestley]

Xandris

Priestley

I believe there is wisdom equal to that provided in the Bible in texts not of Abrahamic origin because I have tested it and found it so.

Which is exactly as it should be. My previous post wasn't trying to say that the Bible is the only wisdom, only to ask whether your 'newfound' wisdom was something that connected back to it or not. Otherwise I feel the wisdom is still Biblical in nature, wherever you found it.

Ah, my view is the reverse: the Bible should connect back to wisdom as should other holy texts.

I view the discovery and unveiling of God and science as the steps in the progression in human thought, experience and existence.  

[freelance lover]

Fushigi na Butterfly

The sticky explains what should go in here.

Anyway.

@Liz: But how can anyone be sure what the spirit of the Bible is? That's my point. How do I know the Bible was inspired by God? Because the Bible says so? Isn't that like a person saying to you that they never lie, and you asking how you can believe them, and them answering, "Because I never lie"? Is there any outside evidence of the Bible's truth, wisdom, and possibly having been inspired by God? Where do I find it?

I feel like the spirit of the Bible is the same as the spirit of God. I really came to know God knowing very little about the Bible, but the vast majority of the Bible coincides with how I understand God, and the more I study the more falls into place.

You have to remember I don't necessarily believe Christianity is the only path to God and salvation, so I see many other religions as being valid in that they support similar ideas, beliefs, morals, and understandings of God. Does this belief contradict the Bible? Yes. As soon as I say this, everyone pulls out the verse where Jesus says no one come to the Father except through the Son. But I also know I will never fully understand God or the Bible, so I will always have unanswered questions in the end.

I suppose it comes down to my understanding of God and how I see him working in my life. The Bible makes sense with this, so I see it valid and divinely inspired.  

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

@ryuu and Priestley: It would be a good main forum subject, but we're discussing the Bible, so it makes more sense to me that it should be in here. sweatdrop

Yes, regardless of whether or not the Bible is actually the Word of God, or divinely inspired, there is definitely wisdom to be gleaned from it. There are practical moral guidelines within its pages that offer advice on how we can harmoniously live with one another, and how we can approach and begin to understand God. Beyond that, however, much else can't be said.

Like Liz, I find that much of the Bible, specifically the New Testament, aligns with what I believe, or want to believe, about God, and how people should live their lives. However, I find myself in a chicken-or-the-egg scenario: did the Bible influence how I feel people should live, or does my beliefs about how people should live influence how I interpret the Bible, and the importance I place on some of its teachings? Obviously, only I can answer this question for myself.

Ultimately, my faith is evolving. What I want to believe about God and salvation leans toward (and I may not even be using a valid term here) theistic universalism. I want to believe that there is a Creator, and that He would not create a universe He didn't intend on playing an active role in, and that He is an omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent Creator. I believe that, yes, humanity has fallen away from God and that we need to be reconciled to Him again, but whether Jesus was that ultimate deciding factor, I have no sure proof of anymore. I believe that God created us so uniquely and individually that it would be near impossible for anyone to understand God the same way any other person does, exactly, and that human beings must come to know God using the resources afforded them by God Himself, including their personalities. I believe (or want to believe) that God's main focus is that we honor Him and by honoring one another, and that to be intentionally cruel or to intentionally harm another human being in any capacity is sinful. Love God, love your neighbor. To focus on anything negative or follow a darker religion, such as Satanism (in any form), is dangerous, possibly blasphemous, but that to have no faith at all is worse.

I don't know if this has been influenced by the Bible, or if I should just agree with those parts of the Bible that agree with me, and disregard the rest- after all, as I already asked, how are we to know that the Bible is actually "the Word of God." I suppose, by my own reasoning and understanding of God, the Bible has to have been inspired by Him in some way, particularly the parts the fit with my worldview and view of God. But that's just me picking and choosing what of the Bible I believe. I think these things are true, but how do I know they are? It's the same basic question I asked before, I guess. sweatdrop How do I know for sure that my beliefs are the truth, and not just what I'm choosing to believe because it makes me feel better? How can I know, when I pray, that the answers I'm receiving are actually of God, and not me having some long, drawn-out argument with myself?  

[Priestley]

It's intriguing to say the least. On Saturday, I had some discussions with the people I work with at the youth club who are also Christians. I find that their faith is very much a case of believing what they want to believe about God whilst giving almost scripted answers to my questions. I say "scripted" because they are answers I have heard multiple times before.

To use an example, I confessed that my interest in the Bible is quite academic and its use of language to express ideas current to the time during which they were expressed. I confessed that I am eager to analyse what God has supposedly commanded to gleam reasoning from it which satisfies my belief that it was originally from God and not tradition or custom made by man. The response I got was pretty much "we'll never know all the answers; we just have to trust" which, to me, translates as "don't bother questioning, just accept it." That is not satisfactory, especially when Paul recommends that everything should be tested. The other response I got to how God's commandments in the Old Testament were relevant was that "Jesus did away with all that so it's not relevant to us any more" which wasn't the question I asked.

It is as though fellow Christians are warning me away from too much questioning. I say this because certain Christians are not subtle in their attempts. It is the equivalent of someone charging into a conversation and forcing me to accept that they know better and are right.