Asatru and Germanic Paganism

[Synnthetika]

So, I have been reading Deoridhe's thread and it has helped. However, after realizing that much of the material I have been using has either been misleading or incorrect, I've decided to start from scratch.

Where do I start? I had been using the translation of the Elder Edda from sacred-texts, but was told that it was very Christianized. I am thinking about looking for a group again, but want to know what kind of traits to look for in a helpful and accurate group. Would joining a local Kindred be advised or should I wait and do individual research first?

What books should I read? So far, I've heard the Eddas are essential along with Germania by Tacitus. Any other suggestions?  

[TeaDidikai]

Synnthetika

Where do I start?

Archeological and anthropological texts, and some better translations. Deo has some recommendations in her thread.

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but want to know what kind of traits to look for in a helpful and accurate group

Start by asking what texts they use. Evaluate the kind of Asatru you want to practice. Try looking at the willingness to discuss and reason through questions form the members of the group. That's likely a big one. If your response is "Why is it you think Loki is the most evil thing in the world and you won't let me address him by anything but a veiled kenning?" is "Because we said so!" you're likely in the wrong place for this stage in your development.

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Would joining a local Kindred be advised or should I wait and do individual research first?

Myself? I'd wait. But then, I trust "groups" as much as I trust cockroach infested restaurants.

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Any other suggestions?

Which gods are at the core of your personal practice?  

[Synnthetika]

TeaDidikai

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Any other suggestions?

Which gods are at the core of your personal practice?

In general response to the rest of your post: I think I'll wait too. Once I start learning more, questions will inevitably develop on their own. Right now, since I basically said "okay, toss everything out the window and start from scratch," I honestly don't think joining a group yet would be wise either. I just thought about it because a person-to-person discussion helps me learn better in some aspects, but I'm content with having a lengthy discussion on the anthropology of the Teutons and Germanic societies with an anthropology teacher just as well.

As for which Gods I am most comfortable and familiar with (though this may change as my understanding of Asatru/Germanic Paganism develops) include Freyja, Thor, and Odin.  

[TeaDidikai]

Synnthetika

I just thought about it because a person-to-person discussion helps me learn better in some aspects, but I'm content with having a lengthy discussion on the anthropology of the Teutons and Germanic societies with an anthropology teacher just as well.

There's also asking folks around here.

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As for which Gods I am most comfortable and familiar with (though this may change as my understanding of Asatru/Germanic Paganism develops) include Freyja, Thor, and Odin.

Why?  

[Synnthetika]

TeaDidikai

Synnthetika

I just thought about it because a person-to-person discussion helps me learn better in some aspects, but I'm content with having a lengthy discussion on the anthropology of the Teutons and Germanic societies with an anthropology teacher just as well.

There's also asking folks around here.

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Yes, and I've contacted Ulfrikr inn Hrafn as a mentee, so hopefully that'll go well. Plus there's a lot more people on here too.

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As for which Gods I am most comfortable and familiar with (though this may change as my understanding of Asatru/Germanic Paganism develops) include Freyja, Thor, and Odin.

Why?

I like Freyja's strength and independence. She's very often confused with being a Goddess of Love and Beauty, which I guess makes up a small part of her. However, I view her more as a Goddess of battle, of magic, but especially of war and death. I view her as being very strong (physically and emotionally and mentally) and so she is someone I want to look towards for inspiration in my own life.

Thor is so forgiving. He really is like the "every-man's" God, in that he's real easy-going, but he can also inspire everyone.

I guess I could say that I most respect Odin. He's cunning, and honorable, and wise. That's what I have always associated him with. I am almost afraid of Odin, simply because he's very intense.

If my interpretations of them are off, by all means let me know.

 

[Ulfrikr inn Hrafn]

Synnthetika

So, I have been reading Deoridhe's thread and it has helped. However, after realizing that much of the material I have been using has either been misleading or incorrect, I've decided to start from scratch.

Where do I start? I had been using the translation of the Elder Edda from sacred-texts, but was told that it was very Christianized. I am thinking about looking for a group again, but want to know what kind of traits to look for in a helpful and accurate group. Would joining a local Kindred be advised or should I wait and do individual research first?

What books should I read? So far, I've heard the Eddas are essential along with Germania by Tacitus. Any other suggestions?

Heilsan Synnthetika,

All authors have inherent bias, no matter how 'even handed' they attempt to be. I have my bias, and academics and esoterists also have their own. Hence, anything that you'll come up against, will have some form of bias within its structure. That being said, yes, some works are better than others.

I find, on for the most part, scholarly material that has been published more recently, tends to be better in its form and content. That being said, throwing out earlier works is, in my personal opinion, a problem given that they can prove to, whether biased or not, have insights within them which are useful given their relative proximity to the folkways of the time, something which we, for the most part, are lacking.

I think that if you're going to get your hands on multiple versions of the Poetic Edda, that's probably the better way to handle that one. Yes, earlier translators were working within a Christian worldview, and so applied that to our ancestral Folkways, however, that being said, as long as you understand the inherent bias this causes, you can often pick your way through the works to a sufficient extent, especially if you're using multiple authors, and are able to directly compare their translations.

I personally like the Hollander translation, primarily because it attempts to maintain the poetic form, so that you can actually use it to recite, without having to know the Icelandic pronunciation. Naturally, the best method is to translate the thing yourself, but that is a rather time consuming and fraught process.

Also works which deal with the social structure of our ancestral peoples, and the development of their culture is very important, and here you are on much firmer ground insofar as quality of work is concerned. There are a myriad of good books on Scandinavian and Germanic culture which are well researched and scholarly in their foundation. Naturally, this means that the books will cost you more, but I can only say that it's very much worth it.

If you want something truly special, and have the funds to afford it, then you can't go past http://www.randburg.is/is/sagas/ for the Complete Sagas of Icelanders. I spotted it on Amazon for $850 US. I bought a set when they were first published, yes, it was cheaper than that, although I think after postage it cost about the same for me to get here to Australia.

Kindreds can be both a boon and a bane. It's very hard to find a Kindred that hasn't established a certain level of 'group think' already and that has firmly made up its mind about a few issues. In other words, if you become a part of that group, you'll be dealing with that, and the fact that your own questions and ideas may not sit well with the group leading to tension and therefore actually hindering your learning rather than helping it. I think that coming to a certain level of internal confidence and knowledge is preferable, but in real terms, I am sure that you'll always encounter in some groups the know-it-all and other personality types. Sometimes you just have to nod politely and hold your own council for the sake of being able to socialise with people of a similar mindset.

Prose and Poetic Eddas are good, and yes the Germania is also a good source. Icelandic Sagas are very useful as well, if you can't afford the Sagas of Icelanders, you can pick up paperback versions of the most common sagas, such as Njalla, etc. Gordon's an Introduction to Old Norse is a good basic learning text for the language. Dictionary of Northern Mythology by Simek is invaluable. Gods of the Ancient Northmen by Dumezil is good. Anything by H. R. Ellis-Davidson is pretty good, although her later work tended to jump of the feminist band-wagon as far as interpreting history was concerned, much like the world Goddess tripe trotted out by Gimbutas and co.

Ver thu heil  

[saint dreya]

TeaDidikai

If your response is "Why is it you think Loki is the most evil thing in the world and you won't let me address him by anything but a veiled kenning?" is "Because we said so!" you're likely in the wrong place for this stage in your development.

not to mention there are some kindred that will not stand even speaking Loki's name and there are some *shudder* that give the etins and frost giants equal standing in their worship. use your eventual knowledge of the lore, your judgment, and your positioning towards the topic themselves.

Synnthetika

Thor is so forgiving. He really is like the "every-man's" God, in that he's real easy-going, but he can also inspire everyone.

um, that might be your personal relation with him, so i'm not going to eek too much out of it.

when i've worked with him, he's been very demanding, very exacting, and in the lore, when offended, not very quick to forgive (sometimes, quick to anger). again, this might be the difference in the paths you and i are on and how he responds accordingly.

but he is considered the "every-man's" god and seems to be very approachable to many people. i'm making that last call on the number of people, not just heathens, who work with him often, so i admit that statement is skewed to my sphere of acquaintances.

Synnthetika

I guess I could say that I most respect Odin. He's cunning, and honorable, and wise. That's what I have always associated him with. I am almost afraid of Odin, simply because he's very intense.

he is very cunning. he is very wise. honorable...i'm debating how to word this.

i concede he might have an overarching plan. i concede that he might have a set up of how best to recreate life and the like after Ragnarok. i concede that he might have done some specific actions building up to the eventual fight, either in forestalling it or again encouraging life after, purposefully.

and there are some times when the lore paints him in a light similar to Loki (i speak with enough people that think Odin and Loki might be the same deity what with Odin occasionally playing the trickster also that it has colored my view a bit). working with Odin, in the words of Tea, "make my teeth itch".

and, he is very intense.

i defer to Ulfrikr inn Hrafn (more knowledgeable than i in Heathenry) and Deo (who i believe was practicing/working on Seidhr...am i wrong?) in further information on him.

Ulfrikr inn Hrafn

If you want something truly special, and have the funds to afford it, then you can't go past http://www.randburg.is/is/sagas/ for the Complete Sagas of Icelanders. I spotted it on Amazon for $850 US. I bought a set when they were first published, yes, it was cheaper than that, although I think after postage it cost about the same for me to get here to Australia.

how does this compare to The Complete Sagas of Icelanders? and it looks like Amazon might have it for $595.00, although used versions are going for over a grand. curious...  

[Synnthetika]

saint dreya

TeaDidikai

If your response is "Why is it you think Loki is the most evil thing in the world and you won't let me address him by anything but a veiled kenning?" is "Because we said so!" you're likely in the wrong place for this stage in your development.

not to mention there are some kindred that will not stand even speaking Loki's name and there are some *shudder* that give the etins and frost giants equal standing in their worship. use your eventual knowledge of the lore, your judgment, and your positioning towards the topic themselves.

Synnthetika

Thor is so forgiving. He really is like the "every-man's" God, in that he's real easy-going, but he can also inspire everyone.

um, that might be your personal relation with him, so i'm not going to eek too much out of it.

when i've worked with him, he's been very demanding, very exacting, and in the lore, when offended, not very quick to forgive (sometimes, quick to anger). again, this might be the difference in the paths you and i are on and how he responds accordingly.

I am glad you are sharing this with me. I know of 1 kindred/group and one other person who follows the Germanic Paganism path. The 1 person is actually a Gothi who was "certified," for lack of a better word, in Iceland after spending some time there (5 years). I don't know him well enough to actually approach him and validate the claim, so yeah. I need as much feedback as I can get. While I have experienced much more anger from Freyja, I usually don't from Thor. My personal relationship with him is not very passionate though; in the sense of "omg, I just lost my job, what do I do now?" I don't "lean on him." I party with Thor more than anything else, and ask advice.

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but he is considered the "every-man's" god and seems to be very approachable to many people. i'm making that last call on the number of people, not just heathens, who work with him often, so i admit that statement is skewed to my sphere of acquaintances.

Synnthetika

I guess I could say that I most respect Odin. He's cunning, and honorable, and wise. That's what I have always associated him with. I am almost afraid of Odin, simply because he's very intense.

he is very cunning. he is very wise. honorable...i'm debating how to word this.

i concede he might have an overarching plan. i concede that he might have a set up of how best to recreate life and the like after Ragnarok. i concede that he might have done some specific actions building up to the eventual fight, either in forestalling it or again encouraging life after, purposefully.

and there are some times when the lore paints him in a light similar to Loki (i speak with enough people that think Odin and Loki might be the same deity what with Odin occasionally playing the trickster also that it has colored my view a bit). working with Odin, in the words of Tea, "make my teeth itch".

Well, with his actions, especially with how to deal with Ragnarok, he did what he thought was the best course of action. I think Odin and Loki are similar in that sometimes they have to make a hard choice, for the overall good. Correct me if my logic/interpretation is incorrect, but Loki messes things around because of stagnation; the best thing to do is to cause change, even if that change is sometimes rough. So while I wouldn't work exclusively with Odin, like I wouldn't work exclusive with Loki, (I don't really like change honestly) I respect him for what he does.

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and, he is very intense.

i defer to Ulfrikr inn Hrafn (more knowledgeable than i in Heathenry) and Deo (who i believe was practicing/working on Seidhr...am i wrong?) in further information on him.

Ok cool. Do you know what kind of questions I should ask them about Odin? Like their personal experiences or what?  

[Synnthetika]

Ulfrikr inn Hrafn

Heilsan Synnthetika,

All authors have inherent bias, no matter how 'even handed' they attempt to be. I have my bias, and academics and esoterists also have their own. Hence, anything that you'll come up against, will have some form of bias within its structure. That being said, yes, some works are better than others.

I find, on for the most part, scholarly material that has been published more recently, tends to be better in its form and content. That being said, throwing out earlier works is, in my personal opinion, a problem given that they can prove to, whether biased or not, have insights within them which are useful given their relative proximity to the folkways of the time, something which we, for the most part, are lacking.

So basically, newer authors will probably have less biased information, but older authors may have more gems of information?

Quote:

I think that if you're going to get your hands on multiple versions of the Poetic Edda, that's probably the better way to handle that one. Yes, earlier translators were working within a Christian worldview, and so applied that to our ancestral Folkways, however, that being said, as long as you understand the inherent bias this causes, you can often pick your way through the works to a sufficient extent, especially if you're using multiple authors, and are able to directly compare their translations.

I personally like the Hollander translation, primarily because it attempts to maintain the poetic form, so that you can actually use it to recite, without having to know the Icelandic pronunciation. Naturally, the best method is to translate the thing yourself, but that is a rather time consuming and fraught process.

Just out of curiosity, how would I go about translating the Eddas myself?

Quote:

Also works which deal with the social structure of our ancestral peoples, and the development of their culture is very important, and here you are on much firmer ground insofar as quality of work is concerned. There are a myriad of good books on Scandinavian and Germanic culture which are well researched and scholarly in their foundation. Naturally, this means that the books will cost you more, but I can only say that it's very much worth it.

If you want something truly special, and have the funds to afford it, then you can't go past http://www.randburg.is/is/sagas/ for the Complete Sagas of Icelanders. I spotted it on Amazon for $850 US. I bought a set when they were first published, yes, it was cheaper than that, although I think after postage it cost about the same for me to get here to Australia.

It's something to work towards anyway! It would be absolutely amazing to own.

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Prose and Poetic Eddas are good, and yes the Germania is also a good source. Icelandic Sagas are very useful as well, if you can't afford the Sagas of Icelanders, you can pick up paperback versions of the most common sagas, such as Njalla, etc. Gordon's an Introduction to Old Norse is a good basic learning text for the language. Dictionary of Northern Mythology by Simek is invaluable. Gods of the Ancient Northmen by Dumezil is good. Anything by H. R. Ellis-Davidson is pretty good, although her later work tended to jump of the feminist band-wagon as far as interpreting history was concerned, much like the world Goddess tripe trotted out by Gimbutas and co.

Ver thu heil

I have a couple unrelated questions.

What does Heilsan mean and what does Ver thru heil mean?

Oh, and I've added those books to my Reccomended reading list! Thank you!  

[Deoridhe]

I'm more runes that Seidhr; I'm not sure the pathwalking I do counts as Seidhr. If I ever reach the point where I can ask Odin and/or Freya and trust the answer, I'lllet you guys know.

In regards to Odin and honor... you can trust him to act in what he thinks are the best interests for the world and the people he is connected with who he wants to see prosper. That is not honorable in the conventional sense. Tyr or Thor might be more reliable. My experience with Frigga is she has her own powerful sense of integrity; at the moment she's the god I'm courting the most. *eyes her semi-clean apartment* Speaking of, I should do the dishes.

Ulfrikr is a superior mentor and a much better Loresman than I. I'm more experiential and impulse-driven. This might explain why I'm as close to Odin as I am, and it might be a side effect of dedicating myself to him.

The best basis for exploring is learn what you can, find people whose advice and opinions you value, and trust and share your impulses. Try to balance letting yourself be taken over by the knowledge with keeping your bearings in society. We're remaking a religion here; we need to rethink the world to accomplish that, and that will not be easy.

And welcome. ^__^  

[saint dreya]

Synnthetika

I am glad you are sharing this with me. I know of 1 kindred/group and one other person who follows the Germanic Paganism path. The 1 person is actually a Gothi who was "certified," for lack of a better word, in Iceland after spending some time there (5 years). I don't know him well enough to actually approach him and validate the claim, so yeah. I need as much feedback as I can get. While I have experienced much more anger from Freyja, I usually don't from Thor. My personal relationship with him is not very passionate though; in the sense of "omg, I just lost my job, what do I do now?" I don't "lean on him." I party with Thor more than anything else, and ask advice.

honestly, i've seen many people get on with deities in far different fashions than my own experiences. some will get the cold shoulder from one, another will say that one is completely warm, etc. mind, i'm not advocating one perceive Odin as the god of unicorns and bright shinies because someone gets that feeling from them. i think they'd be heavily distorted on their perceptions.

Synnthetika

Well, with his actions, especially with how to deal with Ragnarok, he did what he thought was the best course of action. I think Odin and Loki are similar in that sometimes they have to make a hard choice, for the overall good. Correct me if my logic/interpretation is incorrect, but Loki messes things around because of stagnation; the best thing to do is to cause change, even if that change is sometimes rough. So while I wouldn't work exclusively with Odin, like I wouldn't work exclusive with Loki, (I don't really like change honestly) I respect him for what he does.

again, where personal interaction comes in. me personally, i can understand the need for either of them. i still get along better with the concept and idea of Loki. i still have a hard time with Odin, if only because his motives seem very hidden to me.

Synnthetika

Ok cool. Do you know what kind of questions I should ask them about Odin? Like their personal experiences or what?

Deo's poked her head and offered quite a bit (sorry i was confused Deo, but thanks for clarifying. i still think you're the go-to for Odin info since your dedication). otherwise, why not general questions?  

[Deoridhe]

saint dreya

again, where personal interaction comes in. me personally, i can understand the need for either of them. i still get along better with the concept and idea of Loki. i still have a hard time with Odin, if only because his motives seem very hidden to me.

In my experience, Loki is more predictable. If he says he'll help, he'll help. If he says he'll harm, he'll harm. There's consistency.

Odin will say he'll help, but "help" will be sacrificing you at the height of your power so that he can have you on the battlefield for Ragnarok. He helped.... himself.

I love him dearly, but I always try to keep in mind that he will always value his goals above mine.  

[saint dreya]

Deoridhe

saint dreya

again, where personal interaction comes in. me personally, i can understand the need for either of them. i still get along better with the concept and idea of Loki. i still have a hard time with Odin, if only because his motives seem very hidden to me.

In my experience, Loki is more predictable. If he says he'll help, he'll help. If he says he'll harm, he'll harm. There's consistency.

Odin will say he'll help, but "help" will be sacrificing you at the height of your power so that he can have you on the battlefield for Ragnarok. He helped.... himself.

I love him dearly, but I always try to keep in mind that he will always value his goals above mine.

thank you. that was what i was trying to express.  

[Deoridhe]

saint dreya

thank you. that was what i was trying to express.

Part of the struggle is that it flies in the face of how most people relate to most gods, up to and including Odin when approaching him as Alfather. Mistrust is not considered ....normal, or even respectful. However, when relating to Odin personally, mistrust is sensible and emotionally congruent. A lot of people struggle with loving someone but not trusting them as well, and again this is something which is possible but not easy.

And when the chips are down, part of my relationship with him is I will let him use me for his ends; I'll just try to get what I want at the same time.

But it's not a comfortable relationship.

I struggle with the implications of his relationship with me and what it inspires in me a lot. I tend to like to comfort and love people; he inspires me to unsettle and disturb them. I like to be liked; he inspires me to not care. I would like to be reliable, he reminds me that reliability is a trap. I like pleasure; he reminds me that suffering is integral to knowledge and pleasure.  

[TeaDidikai]

Deoridhe

But it's not a comfortable relationship.

I struggle with the implications of his relationship with me and what it inspires in me a lot. I tend to like to comfort and love people; he inspires me to unsettle and disturb them. I like to be liked; he inspires me to not care. I would like to be reliable, he reminds me that reliability is a trap. I like pleasure; he reminds me that suffering is integral to knowledge and pleasure.

Myself? I figure I have given him his due. He took blood when I made that statue. It was burned into the investment powder. Considering the one and only experience I had with him in a spiritual setting, I say we're even.

I personally found it interesting when I met my first "serious" Asatrur. Her take on Odin was so alien compared to the impressions of the Fluffy Asatru folks I knew.

Her personal spiritual experiences with him were as a lover/initiator into some pretty deep Runes. Contrast this with the "Respectable Father" figure many Fluffs I have seen paint him as, and you can understand how I was a little shocked. That being said, it rang more true than any of the personal accounts I had heard of him up to that point.

My personal experience with Thor and Freya are very... different. Mostly because it wasn't so much their direct presence, but the aftermath of their presence on others that was so striking.