Controlling the spirits: Enslavement?

[Gho the Girl]

In Yasmine Galenorn's book, Totem Magic, she makes an argument that spirits should not be placed under the spiritworker's control. That this is enslavement, and that the summoning or invoking of a spirit/thoughtfrom/otherling that requires one to exert control over it in order is ethically improper.

I am reserving my thoughts on this issue for the moment. What do you all think?  

[CuAnnan]

Ok, here's my two cents on the matter.
Let's say I invite you over to my house for tea. You come over, you bring biscuits (gluten free) or ask if there's anything I need on the way. I say I could do with milk and a bag of sugar and I'll pay you when you get here. You refuse payment when you get here, because it's only proper.
There is a sense of reciprocity here, a social ettiquette which places obligation on guest and host. It is as ancient a form of hospitality as poetry.

Now... let's say I call over to your house, point a gun at your head, steal milk and sugar money from you and then leave you outside my house (with the doors locked) and expect you to find your own way home.

That is invocation by invitation versus invocation by command. In one, I invite you in. In the other, I put a gun to your head. A tad hyperbolic, I grant you, but the exhaggeration is to demonstrate how different invitation and command are.

If I ask you to mow my lawn and tell you that I'll pay you a fiver and you get free grub out of it, to move from host/guest to employer/employee, then you'll probably say yes, you might say no but no-harm-no-foul.

If I bind you in chains and tell you that I won't let you leave until my lawn is mowed, then we have a problem. Note that I haven't stated that I will let you leave, I mean, I might forget or I might have more work for you to do.

Binding a thoughtform, spirit, etc to an item UNWILLINGLY is morally repugnant to me and, I think I stand safe saying, on behalf of the Gael. It violates hospitality. It is not ok. If something chooses the path of servitude and offers itself, like ancestors do for weapons or houses (I love that one, I totally want to be a house guardian for two people). We have an ancient and honored tradition of doing this but ONLY at the request of the deceased.

If ever, however, someone attempts to summon my spirit after I am deceased I will not be best pleased.  

[Recursive Paradox]

Cu summed up my views pretty well but to expand further:

Even if you don't have the basic respect for other beings not to hold them against their will in such gross misconduct, you could also see it from the standpoint that you are now dealing with a very pissed off being.

A pissed off being who might have friends. Or be more powerful than you realized. Doesn't sound like a healthy situation to be in.

Part of the reason (logically) why we should have social rules and hospitality rules in cultures is to keep everyone from killing, torturing or otherwise doing horrible things to each other in continuing cycles of revenge from one transgression all the way into infinity.  

[Adalyna]

*raises hand* :3 I agree with both points though I like to think of hospitality for the sake of hospitality. What I would like to know, having not studied magic, is how to know if you've bound something willingly or not? I guess this is a good question for the stupid questions thread. Would it have to do with the kind of ritual involved, with the thought process in your mind during said ritual? Pardon the ignorance of my question.  

[TeaDidikai]

I'll add to the two discussions above a note about two kinds of otherlings not already addressed.

First are the "Not-So-Forced-Forced" spirits. There are creatures within cultures wherein a lack of cooperation is expected, and in fact encouraged. None from open traditions come readily to mind, except maybe some of the Infernal Keys, and even then- they may fall more into the second category than this one.

Popular fiction has however done these kinds of spirits justice in the last couple decades. In Wyrd Sisters by Pratchett, and one of the Dresden novels, "demons" are summoned, make threats etc- then when they're told the summoners don't have time for the show, they settle down into more or less pleasant conversation.

In a similar analogy to Cu's hospitality comment, in Japan, when people go out to dinner after work, there's often fighting over the bill, with bragging rights landing someone who just got a raise or something winning the right to pay.

The second group are spirits that quite frankly are intended to be forced. They make up a very small percentage of theological practices and again, the only ones that come to mind that I can think of that others might be familiar with are from the Lesser Keys.

Either they are too dangerous, but none the less necessary, to work with or there are prohibitions against them coming from where they are to where you are. There may be other groups from other traditions that their culture expects force to be used.

Not only can I understand those kinds of spirits making people uncomfortable, but I would highly recommend people from outside of these traditions to leave such beings the ******** alone.

Asahi Sara>> Most of the time the construction of the evocation or invocation is that which allows the being in question to choose to participate or not.  

[CuAnnan]

You know, now that Gho and Nuri have Skype, I'm thinking if we get all four of us on line at one point in time, we could have a podcasting session on this.

Actually, there are a couple of things I'd like to add to Tea's point. I'm very cagy about using things like the Keys. There's an entitlement there that I'm pretty sure I've rejected or was never accorded to me in the first place or was bought by other Deities, who can tell after all this time, anyway.... Frankly, unless you can put it down, don't summon it up. Never summon up anything with more eyes than you have, either. And if it requires you to say it's name three times and its name is a contraction of an insect and a drink, then don't summon it.  

[TeaDidikai]

CuAnnan

I'm very cagy about using things like the Keys.

Likewise. To me, it's the theological equivalent of choosing a kick to the head or a kick to the nuts. And I don't even have my own.

Quote:

Frankly, unless you can put it down, don't summon it up.

3nodding

Quote:

Never summon up anything with more eyes than you have, either.

Can't fully agree with this one, but that's because there are some very specific traditions I know of.

Quote:

And if it requires you to say it's name three times and its name is a contraction of an insect and a drink, then don't summon it.

Is this where we link the Necronomicon?  

[CuAnnan]

TeaDidikai

CuAnnan

I'm very cagy about using things like the Keys.

Likewise. To me, it's the theological equivalent of choosing a kick to the head or a kick to the nuts. And I don't even have my own.

Quote:

Frankly, unless you can put it down, don't summon it up.

3nodding

Quote:

Never summon up anything with more eyes than you have, either.

Can't fully agree with this one, but that's because there are some very specific traditions I know of.

Quote:

And if it requires you to say it's name three times and its name is a contraction of an insect and a drink, then don't summon it.

Is this where we link the Necronomicon?

I was going to link to the very powerful and malevolent B'tl Juuss  

[maenad nuri]

do you really want my munchkin voice on a podcast? I've heard my voice in playback, it is amusing.  

[TeaDidikai]

maenad nuri

do you really want my munchkin voice on a podcast? I've heard my voice in playback, it is amusing.

Yus. 3nodding  

[Diamond Leaf Clover]

CuAnnan

TeaDidikai

CuAnnan

I'm very cagy about using things like the Keys.

Likewise. To me, it's the theological equivalent of choosing a kick to the head or a kick to the nuts. And I don't even have my own.

Quote:

Frankly, unless you can put it down, don't summon it up.

3nodding

Quote:

Never summon up anything with more eyes than you have, either.

Can't fully agree with this one, but that's because there are some very specific traditions I know of.

Quote:

And if it requires you to say it's name three times and its name is a contraction of an insect and a drink, then don't summon it.

Is this where we link the Necronomicon?

I was going to link to the very powerful and malevolent B'tl Juuss

Haha, I love that movie! 3nodding  

[saint dreya]

CuAnnan

Frankly, unless you can put it down, don't summon it up.

that's a pretty good general rule about much of many things. you and Deo have both touched on that in regards to putting your name in ogam/runic, respectively.

maenad nuri

do you really want my munchkin voice on a podcast? I've heard my voice in playback, it is amusing.

have you had to listen to your voice for work? now that's weird...  

[Cyrus the Elder]

CuAnnan

You know, now that Gho and Nuri have Skype, I'm thinking if we get all four of us on line at one point in time, we could have a podcasting session on this.

Hey, what about me? I have skype and will have a microphone Thursday, probably. ninja

Quote:

Never summon up anything with more eyes than you have, either.

...but I like my Deity emo


Now, my two cents on the topic at hand. My (not-Asatru, obviously) path deals with a few different entities and has rather specific rules on how to deal with each. For one of those groups, the guidelines can be summed up as "Be a total ******** arsehole".

Believe it or not, but this is actually the respectful way to do things. The entities in question interpret what most would consider kindness and respect to be patronizing. It's viewed as implying that they're weak and should be treated accordingly. They also have a problem with asking, generally the view is that if you have the luxury of asking, it can't be important. The most respectful way to do things around them is if you're going to bring them up, tell them to do what you ******** tell them right away, don't ask, don't be nice, tell them to do it.

Guess what I'm trying to get at is, it depends on the entities in question, being a good host doesn't always consist of being kind, nice, etc. sometimes it consists of addressing the guest in the manner to which they are accustomed.

Of course, binding something against its will is something I personally see as a rather...disgusting practice which I don't touch with a barge-pole. However, on the flip side of that, I can see situations in which it might be unavoidable or justifiable (but still not good).  

[Recursive Paradox]

Huh. You can do podcasts using skype? Or do you just record the combined call and then run it?  

[CuAnnan]

Recursive Paradox

Huh. You can do podcasts using skype? Or do you just record the combined call and then run it?

There's a plugin you can get.
Takes all of the channels as tracks. Lets you use garage band to mix them.