The importance of a virgin birth

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

In spite of how Christmasty this topic may be, I was just pondering this the other day when thinking about how I'd love to learn Greek and Hebrew, and read untranslated Biblical texts. Then I remembered the contention over whether or not Mary was actually a virgin or not when Jesus was born, since the Greek word that was translated into virgin would actually be translated simply as woman.

I pose this question: Does it really even matter if Mary was a virgin or not? Not only that, but are there any other parts in the Bible where the importance of Mary's virginity (or lack thereof) is metnioned?  

[Priestley]

You fight like a dairy farmer.

I think the point of the virgin birth is to get around the imperfection that original sin created. I imagine a virgin birth means that Jesus wasn't a product of lust and therefore not a product of sin. If what I understand of the nature of Jesus' birth is true, DNA contribution wasn't required, since he was a spirit being created by God and implanted in the womb. I imgine the womb as a vessel needed to be clean in the sense that it was free from sin.

How appropriate. You fight like a cow.

 

[Stargirl8480]

I was thinking of that myself recently. Haha.
Whether she was or not, Jesus came of it. But I agree with Priestley.  

[Priestley]

Stargirl8480

I was thinking of that myself recently. Haha.
Whether she was or not, Jesus came of it. But I agree with Priestley.

It certainly has implications. I mean, part of the reason we say that Jesus was perfect is because he had to have been perfect from the start in order to be a sinless sacrifice.  

[Stargirl8480]

Priestley

Stargirl8480

I was thinking of that myself recently. Haha.
Whether she was or not, Jesus came of it. But I agree with Priestley.

It certainly has implications. I mean, part of the reason we say that Jesus was perfect is because he had to have been perfect from the start in order to be a sinless sacrifice.

That's true. even if Mary wasn't a virgin, it wasn't lust, and it wasn't sin. But I don't know. As things are translated, things are changed. So I would assume that whatever the original word was, is the truth.  

[Priestley]

Stargirl8480

Priestley

Stargirl8480

I was thinking of that myself recently. Haha.
Whether she was or not, Jesus came of it. But I agree with Priestley.

It certainly has implications. I mean, part of the reason we say that Jesus was perfect is because he had to have been perfect from the start in order to be a sinless sacrifice.

That's true. even if Mary wasn't a virgin, it wasn't lust, and it wasn't sin.

But lust is the driving force behind procreation and reproduction. Jesus says that lusting is adultery. Adultery is sin. This presents problems as to the nature of Jesus' conception and birth and has implications for his status.  

[Galad Aglaron]

Haha. I think there are several birth-death-rebirth deities (yes, Jesus is one of those) of virgin birth.  

[freelance lover]

This is one of the few areas where I'm pretty traditional on common beliefs in Christianity- I think the virgin birth was important. It seperated Jesus from the rest of humanity as he was born of God and not of man. It also proved that God can do anything.

I think saying it isn't a virgin birth kind of... takes away, you know? I mean, Jesus would still be all awesome and holy, but it would make the story less remarkable. Which many be why her being a virgin would have been added in if it wasn't actually the case.

But in general, yes, I think she as a virgin.  

[Monergism]

Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit. And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly. But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet:

"Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel"

(which means, God with us). When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus. ~ Matthew 1:18-25

According to Matthew, Jesus was born of the "virgin" Mary (verse 23). Matthew quoted Isaiah 7:14 as showing that this "virgin" birth fulfilled prophecy. Isaiah 7:14 says that a "virgin," or "young woman," shall "conceive and bear a son . . . Immanuel." The term in the original Hebrew is ambiguous. Yes, the Greek term parthenos can be used to refer to a young maiden. In the context of the passage, the Lord was encouraging Ahaz to ask for a sign, something remarkable that would indicate to him God's hand at work. "Ask a sign for yourself from the LORD your God; make it deep," God says to Ahaz; but Ahaz does not want to be presumptuous, so the Lord offers the sign. If all the Lord meant was "a young maiden will become pregnant and bear a son," that hardly seems a remarkable sign. Many young maidens became pregnant. Where is the "deep sign" demonstrating an act of God?

Another Hebrews word, bethulah, specifies "a woman who is a virgin"—that is, she has not had sexual intercourse. The Greek Old Testament (Septuagint) translators, nevertheless, translated ’almah as parthenos, which does denote a "virgin." And Matthew used the word parthenos when describing Mary. Both Matthew and Luke agree that a "virgin," Mary, conceived through the Holy Spirit and bore a son, Jesus. Matthew’s account is simpler and more direct, attributing the birth of the Messiah to divine origins and highlighting the significance of this birth—that Jesus is the Son of God.

Jewish people at that time seemed to have been convinced that the King they were going to gain would be of the seed of David, a human being in every sense of royal lineage. When Jesus claimed to be both the son of David and the Son of God, they accused Him of blasphemy. They expected Him to be of the royal line of David but apparently not to be deity, in human flesh. Humanly through the lineage of David He gains the right to rule the world, and from the standpoint of deity He gains the very essence of the nature of God by having been born without a human father through the agency of the Spirit of God Himself. His virgin birth, His substitutionary death, His bodily resurrection and His second coming are a package of deity, you cannot isolate any one of those and accept only that one and leave the rest, or vice versa, accept them all but one.  

[Priestley]

What of virginity symbolising purity rather than upping the hype surrounding the event? Surely a product of an act of sin cannot be sinless, nor can a product of sinful beings be sinless.

Also, Monergism, you specified that the Greek "parthenos" means "young maiden". You specified that, in the Septuagint, "'almah" was translated as "parthenos" in Matthew which still means "young maiden" and not "virgin". You make no mention that Hebrew scriptures use "bethulah", meaning "a woman who is a sexual virgin" in Isaiah. What relevance does this word have to the text you mentioned?  

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

I always thought that the virgin birth was supposed to do both: symbolize purity but also make the event more remarkable.

Other than that, I'm wondering the same thing as you, Priestley.  

[freelance lover]

Priestley

Stargirl8480

Priestley

Stargirl8480

I was thinking of that myself recently. Haha.
Whether she was or not, Jesus came of it. But I agree with Priestley.

It certainly has implications. I mean, part of the reason we say that Jesus was perfect is because he had to have been perfect from the start in order to be a sinless sacrifice.

That's true. even if Mary wasn't a virgin, it wasn't lust, and it wasn't sin.

But lust is the driving force behind procreation and reproduction. Jesus says that lusting is adultery. Adultery is sin. This presents problems as to the nature of Jesus' conception and birth and has implications for his status.

So is all lust sinful? Lust is defined as "intense sexual desire". I would argue that we are intended to lust for our spouse. So is sex, even within marriage sinful?  

[Monergism]

Priestley

Also, Monergism, you specified that the Greek "parthenos" means "young maiden". You specified that, in the Septuagint, "'almah" was translated as "parthenos" in Matthew which still means "young maiden" and not "virgin".

I don't believe so. Parthenos can be used to refer to a young maiden but its specifically the Greek word for "virgin."

NET Bible Translation Notes

`almah, rendered in the Revised Version (British and American) by either "damsel" (Ps 68:25), "maiden" (so usually, Ex 2:8, etc.), or "virgin" with margin "maiden" (Song 1:3; 6:8; Isa 7:14). The word means simply "young woman" and only the context can give it the force "virgin." This force, however, seems required by the contrasts in Song 6:8, but in 1:3 "virgin" throws the accent in the wrong place. The controversies regarding Isa 7:14 are endless, but Septuagint took `almah as meaning "virgin" (parthenos).

Priestley

You make no mention that Hebrew scriptures use "bethulah", meaning "a woman who is a sexual virgin" in Isaiah. What relevance does this word have to the text you mentioned?

Bethulah sometimes refer to "a virgin" in a number of passages in the Old Testament but it does not necessarily always mean "a virgin." For an example in Genesis 24:16, "The girl was very beautiful, a virgin (bethulah), and no man had had relations with her; and she went down to the spring and filled her jar and came up." (NASB) Rebekah, the daughter of Bethuel is referred to as a "bethulah" but the text adds the qualifying clause "no man had had relations with her." Such a qualifying clause would be unnecessary if "bethulah" unambiguously meant "virgin." Later in the same chapter, Rebekah is referred to as an "almah" (verse 43) with no qualifying clause.

NET Bible Translation Notes

bethulah, from a root meaning "separated," is "a woman living apart," i.e. "in her father's house," and hence "a virgin." Bethulah seems to have been the technical term for "virgin," as appears from such a combination as na`arah bhethulah, "a damsel, a virgin," in Dt 22:23,28, etc. An apparent exception is Joel 1:8, "Lament like a virgin bethulah .... for the husband of her youth," but the word is probably due to a wish to allude to the title "virgin daughter of Zion" (the translation "a betrothed maiden" is untrue to Hebrew sentiment). and the use of "virgin" for a city (Isa 37:22, etc.; compare Isa 23:12; 47:1) probably means "unsubdued," though, as often, a title may persist after its meaning is gone (Jer 31:4). The King James Version and the English Revised Version frequently render bethulah by "maiden" or "maid" (Jdg 19:24, etc.), but the American Standard Revised Version has used "virgin" throughout, despite the awkwardness of such a phrase as "young men and virgins" (Ps 148:12).

 

[Priestley]

So, basically, none of the Hebrew terms specifically refer to a woman who is a sexual virgin without some form of qualification. Wherever the word is translated into Greek, however, it uses the term that specifies sexual virginity. This appears to be a mistransliteration, does it not?