Pagan Ethics

[TeaDidikai]

Ethics and moral structures will differ from tradition to tradition and from person to person within traditions- even you even have a tradition to begin with.

So why don't we start a discussion on general pagan ethics.

I plan to help facilitate a discussion on the following positions:

Culture Rape
Abortion Issues
Oathbreaking
Oaths
Euthanasia
Relationships

But this is just a starter list, so I'd like to open it up to folks to toss out topics for a bit before we start in with the actual discussion  

[Satrevi]

How about chilling out? Is that on the list. Seriously, you can't save the world. Just deal with it already.  

[maenad nuri]

Areleklo

How about chilling out? Is that on the list. Seriously, you can't save the world. Just deal with it already.

You need to quit it. We talk about ethics here. It's important for pagans and everyone to talk about ethics and morality and the framing structures of our faiths.

You need to chill as well.  

[Satrevi]

maenad nuri

Areleklo

How about chilling out? Is that on the list. Seriously, you can't save the world. Just deal with it already.

You need to quit it. We talk about ethics here. It's important for pagans and everyone to talk about ethics and morality and the framing structures of our faiths.

You need to chill as well.

I am chill. I was trying to point out she should chill. You know what? If I can't be honest i'm not going to waste my time here. I be honest, and nice about what i'm feeling. I simply talk direct. And i'm getting my head chewed off. I'm not sticking around for that. Seeya.  

[TeaDidikai]

Areleklo

I am chill. I was trying to point out she should chill.

Chill? As in mellow? Since when is being passive a universal virtue?

Quote:

You know what? If I can't be honest i'm not going to waste my time here.

There's a difference between being honest and

Quote:

I simply talk direct.

Everything you're saying, I would say about myself as well. The problem is that you specifically said you are intentionally vague in order to draw out a response from people so you can get a feel for them... Doesn't that mean you just lied?

Quote:

And i'm getting my head chewed off.

Disagreeing with you isn't chewing your head off. rolleyes  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

Celeblin Galadeneryn

I am an agressive person. My Gods approve.

Your point?

I second this.

Areleklo: If you're so bent on quitting because people disagree and debate, then don't let the door hit you on the way out neutral

Some of us here who aren't generally as vocal or active ENJOY the disagreement and the ensuing debate; it's a great ******** way to learn and to gain new perspectives on things. I would've loved to come across a group of people like this a few years earlier; it would've saved me a lot of jackassery on my part.  

[Recursive Paradox]

Using the Three Pillars of Etherism and the Sacredness of the Self as a primary ethical structure:

Culture Rape

Culture rape is stealing elements from a closed culture or twisting elements from an open one and essentially "plagiarizing" them.

This is a pretty clear violation of the Pillar of Wisdom because of the issue of context. Things stolen from a closed culture rarely have contextual elements included and are often misunderstood by outsiders. You can't use the power or knowledge you gain appropriately if you don't understand it.

Same applies for twisting things from other cultures. Because twisting it changes its effectiveness if any is retained at all.

This is also a clear violation of the Pillar of Growth, because you are impacting the growth of others severely without it being a response to attempts to limit your growth.

When people claim that stealing from a closed culture does promote your growth, I disagree because of the violations of the Pillar of Wisdom. A lack of context and associated wisdom means that you won't get much growth out of it and certainly not enough to justify your actions.

Abortion Issues

Abortion is an option based on self determination. The elevation of the Self in Etherism demands that all human beings be given that self determination wherein violations of ones self may be met with a violation in kind if such will free the violated one from the denial of their self determination.

So the option of abortion remains because the fetus is using the female bodied person's uterus without explicit consent and ergo is in violation of her (or his/hir/xir/their for female bodied TG folk of various types) self determination (this applies only in situations where the pregnant person has not consented or does not continuously consent to being pregnant).

For an Etherist specifically, it really depends on how having a child or being pregnant will affect your Growth, Power and Wisdom. If having that child will impinge on those things, then by all means abort. If having a child will actually improve those things, then you should, for your own sake, have that child.

Oathbreaking and Oaths

This depends on the Oath. If the Oath is in violation of the Three Pillars and/or contributes to The Entropy of The Self then it must be broken. If it is not then you would default to secular ethics regarding it.

Until I get some hospitality and respect ethics articulated for Etherism I won't be able to answer these ones that well. Right now I just use secular ethics.

Euthanasia

If one wishes to die then an Etherist will not stand in his or her way. The Self above all.

For myself and any other Etherist, death does not always violate the Three Pillars, but leaving before you've done most of what you can in life is an iffy thing. Chances are you've missed some growth by doing so.

So generally, putting it in your will to let you die is a poor choice within Etherism.

Relationships

I'll have to get back to you on that one. I'm sort of screwed up about relationships because of bad past experiences so it's something I'm still ironing out. >.>

 

[Recursive Paradox]

@Areleklo: You're being obnoxious.

This was a valid topic discussing elements of ethics relating to paganism. Very relevant and very useful for figuring out more about our own paths.

Keep your personal issues out of unrelated threads. Or get the hell out of the guild.  

[Fiddlers Green]

I'm jumping the gun here.
I have some topics I want to bring up, but I'm still formulating how to express them...
Until then:

Culture Rape: Happens. Sometimes it can lead to a beneficial exchange, other times it is a horrible misuse and misunderstanding.
Tends to fall into Ahriman's purview as it involves taking what isn't yours, and ignorance.
However, we aren't nearly as hard on it as we are based from an empire that took pride in allowing people freedom to behave as they will, and fusion traits from their culture with any other culture in our empire.

Abortion IssuesMurder falls under the purview of Ahriman. the soul enters the body at the time of conception. Taking life, especially that which cannot defend itself, is considered vile. not much worse than any other killing of someone who is helpless. even in the case where it is to save the life of the mother it is still considered killing, which is always the domain of Ahriman. Sometimes there is no Beneficent answer apparent. As to the issue of children from rape, the child did not commit the rape and is an innocent in the whole matter. Then again, innocent or not, punishment also is the purview of Ahriman, so avenging oneself on one's rapist is also a dark act.

Oathbreaking: Lying falls into the purview of Ahriman. So does betrayal. Then again... see Oaths.

Oaths: Upholding one's word is considered fair before Anhur. It is good that people tell the truth. That one would need an oath is quaint and odd. every word one speaks is carried on one's soul and should be treated with the same gravity. When someone tricks another person into and oath, or misleads them, then it falls under Ahriman. It is doubly so if one tricks someone into lying, or into and impossible situation.

Euthanasia: Ahriman covers murder. there does come a time when one might consider whether misery, which also belongs to Ahriman is greater than killing. This is a complicated situation. However, it still involves death, which is something Ahriman looks over.

Relationships: Anhur blesses humans with love and pleasure. Community is also hers. These are great, unless they become twisted. When a relationship isn't mutually affectionate, it has lost the blessing of Anhur. If it becomes more pain than joy, it has become a thing of Ahriman. Also, those who hide their relationships do Ahriman well, as he is a creature of secrets and shame. This can lead to an interesting balancing act. In general, we believe people aught be proud of their relationships, and if one would shame you, you aught consider why you are involved in it.

Now, to wit, just because something is of Ahriman does not mean it is the wrong answer. It just means we find it destructive, or something to be treated with caution.  

[TeaDidikai]

I was really hoping that we could tackle these issues in an ongoing discussion one at a time.

I didn't communicate that very well. sweatdrop

Just in case you're thinking about deleting the posts- please don't! I'll be able to use them later. ninja

But are there other topics that people want to see on the list?  

[Deoridhe]

Ethics of magic and/or power vs. physical effort

Insider/outsider differentiation in ethical demands

...I'll think of more as I go.  

[Movin on Up]

Alright, I'll play. But you're kinda vague.

Do you know which ethical theories we should be using?
Or should I assume its strictly Deontology? Since we're looking at Oaths and Oathbreaking and all.

Or are we trying to build our own Virtue Ethics base in this thread? That won't be easy to do well.

At least I know we're not trying to fix the ethics of everyone else that make life harder for us. Similar to feminist ethics but not exactly gonna happen without years of thought before we do anything.  

[TeaDidikai]

Deo>> Thanks.

Movin on Up

Alright, I'll play. But you're kinda vague.

Do you know which ethical theories we should be using?
Or should I assume its strictly Deontology? Since we're looking at Oaths and Oathbreaking and all.

Or are we trying to build our own Virtue Ethics base in this thread? That won't be easy to do well.

At least I know we're not trying to fix the ethics of everyone else that make life harder for us. Similar to feminist ethics but not exactly gonna happen without years of thought before we do anything.

Right now... I'm just looking for topics.  

[Deoridhe]

Movin on Up

Or should I assume its strictly Deontology? Since we're looking at Oaths and Oathbreaking and all.

I have my own ology?

Awesome.