Abortion Made Simple

[zz1000zz]

Pro-life activists claim abortion is murder. From this, abortion is a sin. For an abortion to be murder, two things must be true:

Quote:

1) A fetus must be killed.
2) A fetus must be a human.

The first is self-evident. The second is not true. A fetus is not a human, thus abortion cannot be murder. Ergo, abortion is not a sin.  

[ClaranceSH]

The pyschologists I studied under as well as the quite secular text book we used would disagree and would state that life begins at conception. I mean your understanding of it is certainly one way to view it but it is hardly a fact. The term fetus is just used there because it is more clinicly clean. Many mothers to be would also acuratly desribe them as their unborn baby. Which is the term used so that expecting moms can get goverment aid under a piece of legeslation that I can't remember at this time. I myself hold to the view that a person is a person the moment God knows them. Being that He knows them when He is nitting them in the womb I would say that human hood begins at conception. Now the question then becomes what type of abortion. If the baby is cut up then yes it could be called murder. If through chemical process the baby is seperate from the mother that could be argued as neglect. Of course that seems to be going to far with it train of thought but I find it interesting.

So again I fail to see how a presumption like that can be made.  

[zz1000zz]

ClaranceSH

The pyschologists I studied under as well as the quite secular text book we used would disagree and would state that life begins at conception.

Obviously the "life" begins at conception. A fetus is alive, but it is not a human. I have no idea what psychologists you may have "studied under," but nothing you offer suggest a fetus is a human.

ClaranceSH

I myself hold to the view that a person is a person the moment God knows them. Being that He knows them when He is nitting them in the womb I would say that human hood begins at conception.

If God is omniscient, he knows everything. He would know the past, present and future. This means he knows all human before they are even conceived.

By your argument, human life does not "begin" anymore than God begins. Reductio ad absurdum.  

[ClaranceSH]

Not at all human life begins once God creates it. That being the point of conception. Dr Paul Con is one of the psychs. Though the question of if a fetus is human could also be argued that holding human dna is human, but again I would rely more on that passage to be a light in a rather grey area.  

[zz1000zz]

I would summarize this exchange as: You state your position. I explain the flaw in your position. You respond by repeating your position, ignoring what I explained.  

[Ixor Firebadger]

I have a book (that I should really get around to finishing) that goes through what happens inside the womb from the moment of conception through the whole pregnancy. If I'm understanding correctly, from the moment of conception, that fetus has human DNA. Would that not make it human?  

[zz1000zz]

Ixor-san

If I'm understanding correctly, from the moment of conception, that fetus has human DNA. Would that not make it human?

A toe has human DNA. A tumor has human DNA. A drop of blood as human DNA.

In other words, DNA is insufficient as a determinant.  

[freelance lover]

I consider myself an on-the-fence pro-choice, in that it is the woman's body and her personal and private desicion.

Though I am completely against partial-birth abortions. I see no reason for those to occur. If you've carried the baby full term, just give it up for adoption.  

[Ixor Firebadger]

zz1000zz

Ixor-san

If I'm understanding correctly, from the moment of conception, that fetus has human DNA. Would that not make it human?

A toe has human DNA. A tumor has human DNA. A drop of blood as human DNA.

In other words, DNA is insufficient as a determinant.

Point taken.

So I suppose the question is what makes a human a human?  

[zz1000zz]

My main problem with the abortion subject is people claiming it is a sin. I understand not liking abortion. I even understand wanting to make it illegal; I disapprove greatly, but I understand it.

But calling it a sin? I cannot understand how people can worship a god, say they devote themselves to him completely, all the while bastardizing his message to fit their personal desires.  

[zz1000zz]

Ixor-san

zz1000zz

Ixor-san

If I'm understanding correctly, from the moment of conception, that fetus has human DNA. Would that not make it human?

A toe has human DNA. A tumor has human DNA. A drop of blood as human DNA.

In other words, DNA is insufficient as a determinant.

Point taken.

So I suppose the question is what makes a human a human?

The only honest answer to that is, "Dunno." While many traits can be highlighted as "human traits," there is no definition that truly explains what being a human entails.

Well, there are, but none of them are useful. For example, "If it has a soul, it is human" may be true, but it just avoids the question. How do you know it has a soul?  

[Autie Lady]

Ixor-san

zz1000zz

Ixor-san

If I'm understanding correctly, from the moment of conception, that fetus has human DNA. Would that not make it human?

A toe has human DNA. A tumor has human DNA. A drop of blood as human DNA.

In other words, DNA is insufficient as a determinant.

Point taken.

So I suppose the question is what makes a human a human?

A human is able to worship God and take form after Him.  

[Ixor Firebadger]

zz1000zz

Ixor-san

zz1000zz

Ixor-san

If I'm understanding correctly, from the moment of conception, that fetus has human DNA. Would that not make it human?

A toe has human DNA. A tumor has human DNA. A drop of blood as human DNA.

In other words, DNA is insufficient as a determinant.

Point taken.

So I suppose the question is what makes a human a human?

The only honest answer to that is, "Dunno." While many traits can be highlighted as "human traits," there is no definition that truly explains what being a human entails.

Well, there are, but none of them are useful. For example, "If it has a soul, it is human" may be true, but it just avoids the question. How do you know it has a soul?

Yeah. So I guess it's kinda shaky ground. It really could be a sin. How do we know?

I pretty much hold to the view that it is. I see a fetus as a human life. I really can't explain why, it's just something in me that just feels it's true. Hardly scientific, but not everything is or has to be. Or neccesarily should be.

Though, I do agree with freelance, that it really is highly personal decision and who are any of us to try and make a person's choice for them?  

[saki_hanajima7]

"For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well."

Psalm 139:13-14  

[zz1000zz]

Autie Lady

A human is able to worship God and take form after Him.

I disagree. I do not think an infant is capable of worshipping God, but I do consider an infant to be a human.

Ixor-san

Yeah. So I guess it's kinda shaky ground. It really could be a sin. How do we know?

We know because the Bible say so, or does not say so. It is no different than anything else. If the Bible does not say it is a sin, how could we decide it is a sin?

Ixor-san

Though, I do agree with freelance, that it really is highly personal decision and who are any of us to try and make a person's choice for them?

You cannot say it is a sin, but then say you will not interfere in other people's personal choices. It is the same as with something like homosexuality. While you may do anything to directly interfere with another person's life, simply by calling it a sin you interfere. By not disagreeing when other people call it a sin, you interfere.

Consider how many people did not receive abortions because Republican presidents refused to allow funding to groups providing them.

saki_hanajima7

you knit me together in my mother's womb.

This in no way indicates a fetus has a soul.