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Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:02 pm
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Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:57 pm
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Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 2:51 pm
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Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:13 pm
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Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:01 pm
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Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 5:18 pm
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Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 5:30 pm
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Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:30 am
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Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:07 am
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Quote: Quote: Predestination defies the concept of free will. If God is truly omniscient, then everything that has happened since Creation - the Fall of Lucifer, the Fall of Man, sin itself - has been planned and planned for by Him. If God already knows if you're going to choose the mustard or the ketchup, there's really no choice. He already knows you'll choose the ketchup, so He doesn't really need to put the mustard on the table, but He does so anyway to give you the illusion of free will. Omniscience is the attribute of knowing everything. Predestination is the theory that every event is planned in advance to happen the way it does. One does not imply the other.
Knowing an event will happen as a result of a particular action is not the same as causing that event to happen.
You're probably thinking of omnipotence, in which case you're assuming a requirement of omnipotence is that it is exercised at all times. If God is all-knowing - "He knows what I say before I say it, He knows the number of hairs on my head, He knew me before I was born", all that jazz - and it is by God set the universe in motion in the Beginning, then nothing exists that has not its uttermost source in Him. Likewise, there is nothing that happens that does not originate from Him, and since He is all-knowing, it is highly improbable that he did not know the eventual results of His actions.
As Neo so eloquently put it: "But if you already know, how can I make a choice?"
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Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:25 am
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Quote: Quote: Quote: Predestination defies the concept of free will. If God is truly omniscient, then everything that has happened since Creation - the Fall of Lucifer, the Fall of Man, sin itself - has been planned and planned for by Him. If God already knows if you're going to choose the mustard or the ketchup, there's really no choice. He already knows you'll choose the ketchup, so He doesn't really need to put the mustard on the table, but He does so anyway to give you the illusion of free will. Omniscience is the attribute of knowing everything. Predestination is the theory that every event is planned in advance to happen the way it does. One does not imply the other.
Knowing an event will happen as a result of a particular action is not the same as causing that event to happen.
You're probably thinking of omnipotence, in which case you're assuming a requirement of omnipotence is that it is exercised at all times.If God is all-knowing - "He knows what I say before I say it, He knows the number of hairs on my head, He knew me before I was born", all that jazz - and it is by God set the universe in motion in the Beginning, then nothing exists that has not its uttermost source in Him. Likewise, there is nothing that happens that does not originate from Him, and since He is all-knowing, it is highly improbable that he did not know the eventual results of His actions. Let's clear this up a bit:
Quote: If (a) God is omniscient, that is, he knows all; and (b) God created the universe; then (c) everything in the universe is part of Him. (a) is irrelevant. (c) does not follow (b).
Quote: If (a) God is omniscient, that is, he knows all; and (b) God created the universe; and (c) the above argument is true; then (d) nothing in the universe does not originate from him. (a) is irrelevant here also. The argument above this one is a logical fallacy and (d) does not follow (b).
Quote: If (a) God is omniscient, that is, he knows all; then (b) every event is predestined. (b) does not follow (a). Omniscience does not imply predestination.
Quote: As Neo so eloquently put it: "But if you already know, how can I make a choice?" Knowledge of outcomes does not negate choice.
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Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:42 pm
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Quote: Quote: Quote: Predestination defies the concept of free will. If God is truly omniscient, then everything that has happened since Creation - the Fall of Lucifer, the Fall of Man, sin itself - has been planned and planned for by Him. If God already knows if you're going to choose the mustard or the ketchup, there's really no choice. He already knows you'll choose the ketchup, so He doesn't really need to put the mustard on the table, but He does so anyway to give you the illusion of free will. Omniscience is the attribute of knowing everything. Predestination is the theory that every event is planned in advance to happen the way it does. One does not imply the other.
Knowing an event will happen as a result of a particular action is not the same as causing that event to happen.
You're probably thinking of omnipotence, in which case you're assuming a requirement of omnipotence is that it is exercised at all times.If God is all-knowing - "He knows what I say before I say it, He knows the number of hairs on my head, He knew me before I was born", all that jazz - and it is by God set the universe in motion in the Beginning, then nothing exists that has not its uttermost source in Him. Likewise, there is nothing that happens that does not originate from Him, and since He is all-knowing, it is highly improbable that he did not know the eventual results of His actions. As Neo so eloquently put it: "But if you already know, how can I make a choice?"
The snag in the predestination argument is why would God create people just to predestine them to hell? Would a loving God create people just to damn them for all eternity?
Of course, the snag in the free will argument is if God already knows the outcome, are we really choosing?
Like I said, there are snags in both arguments and I don't think anyone really has the correct answer. But in addition to my choose your own adventure novel author, I also like to think God is like your best friend who knows you so well, he pretty much understand what choices you're going to make because he knows you so intimetly. But I think that even if you throw him for a loop and make an out of character desicion, he still knows the outcome.
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Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 4:39 pm
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freelance lover Quote: Quote: Quote: Predestination defies the concept of free will. If God is truly omniscient, then everything that has happened since Creation - the Fall of Lucifer, the Fall of Man, sin itself - has been planned and planned for by Him. If God already knows if you're going to choose the mustard or the ketchup, there's really no choice. He already knows you'll choose the ketchup, so He doesn't really need to put the mustard on the table, but He does so anyway to give you the illusion of free will. Omniscience is the attribute of knowing everything. Predestination is the theory that every event is planned in advance to happen the way it does. One does not imply the other.
Knowing an event will happen as a result of a particular action is not the same as causing that event to happen.
You're probably thinking of omnipotence, in which case you're assuming a requirement of omnipotence is that it is exercised at all times.If God is all-knowing - "He knows what I say before I say it, He knows the number of hairs on my head, He knew me before I was born", all that jazz - and it is by God set the universe in motion in the Beginning, then nothing exists that has not its uttermost source in Him. Likewise, there is nothing that happens that does not originate from Him, and since He is all-knowing, it is highly improbable that he did not know the eventual results of His actions. As Neo so eloquently put it: "But if you already know, how can I make a choice?" The snag in the predestination argument is why would God create people just to predestine them to hell? Would a loving God create people just to damn them for all eternity?
Of course, the snag in the free will argument is if God already knows the outcome, are we really choosing?
Like I said, there are snags in both arguments and I don't think anyone really has the correct answer. But in addition to my choose your own adventure novel author, I also like to think God is like your best friend who knows you so well, he pretty much understand what choices you're going to make because he knows you so intimetly. But I think that even if you throw him for a loop and make an out of character desicion, he still knows the outcome.
I vote God loves us too much to predestine us to hell. He formed us from the dirt. He put thought into us. If He knows every hair on our head and knows every thought before we even think of it... Why would He damn us to an eternity in hell? Away from Him? I don't understand... I think predestination is just an excuse to be lazy. We are called to witness to the entire world and make disciples of all nations, how can we do that thinking that some of us are already destined to hell? emo
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Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:02 pm
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