Snape: Good or Evil?

[Panda Chi]

I have come to personaly decide that he must be evil. Well, 'evil' meaning a bad guy, anyway.

And it's all because of in the chapter Spinner's End when he makes the Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa that he would protect Draco, and if Draco couldn't finish his 'mission' Snape would do it for him.

Quote:

"If you are there to protect him... Severus, will you swear it? Will you make the Unbreakable Vow?"
"The Unbreakable Vow?"
Snapes expression was blank, unreadable. Bellatrix, however, let out a cackle of triumphant laughter.
"Aren't you listening, Narcissa? Oh, he'll try, I'm sure... The usual empty words, the usual slithering out action... oh, on the Dark Lords orders, of course!"
Snape did not look at Bellatrix. His black eyes were fixed upon Narcissa's tear-filled blue ones as she continued to clutch his hand.
"Certainly, Narcissa, I shall make the Unbreakable Vow," he said quietly. "Perhaps your sister will concent to be our Bonder."

(Pages 35-36 US Edition, Hardcover.)

Well, when he's asked to make the Unbreakable Vow, he seems rather taken aback. Who wouldn't? Sure he may be willing to kill Dumbledore, but I think it would be rather hard, even for Snape, to kill the one person who truely trusted him.

Also, him being taken a back means that he wasn't prepaired for her to ask. It could be argued that Dumbledore and Snape had originally planned before that if Narcissa - or someone on the dark side - wanted him to make the Unbreakable Vow to kill Dumbledore, to do so and keep his cover. But you would think, that if they had planned this, Dumbledore would have explained it to the rest of the Order and to Harry. Because no one really trusted him before, and now that he's killed Dumbledore, no one's ever going to trust him again no matter what he says.

(Sorry if this wasn't well written, it's rather early over here. >.<)

 

[Ex-Professor Remus Lupin]

I feel perhaps that there has to be one person with whom Dumbledore puts complete trust into and would tell something so very important like his plans to have Severus complete the Unbreakable Vow - his brother. *shrugs* Maybe, for all I know, Severus really could be an evil b*****d...its just, I have a hard time believing that after he's saved Harry's life...I mean, he didn't have to do anything during the quidditch match in first year, but he did. He is, as Jo put, a deeply horrible person, but he's not evil and he is Dumbledore's man through and through.  

[Panda Chi]

Ex-Professor Remus Lupin

I feel perhaps that there has to be one person with whom Dumbledore puts complete trust into and would tell something so very important like his plans to have Severus complete the Unbreakable Vow - his brother. *shrugs* Maybe, for all I know, Severus really could be an evil b*****d...its just, I have a hard time believing that after he's saved Harry's life...I mean, he didn't have to do anything during the quidditch match in first year, but he did. He is, as Jo put, a deeply horrible person, but he's not evil and he is Dumbledore's man through and through.

True. However, if Dumbledore didn't tell at least someone, no one would ever trust Snape again.

And also, I'm pretty sure that Snape saved Harry because James had saved him before. I think Snape felt he had a debt to pay. And then he did.

 

[Ex-Professor Remus Lupin]

That doesn't explain why he would want to save Harry in book three...I mean, half of it was the glory of being the one to catch Sirius Black, but he was still there defending his students. Regardless of Severus being evil or not, I still think he is the best character the Jo created.  

[Panda Chi]

Ex-Professor Remus Lupin

That doesn't explain why he would want to save Harry in book three...I mean, half of it was the glory of being the one to catch Sirius Black, but he was still there defending his students. Regardless of Severus being evil or not, I still think he is the best character the Jo created.

Huh, I forgot about that one. Well, that I'm not quite sure about, but I do think that wanting to be the first to catch Sirius was a big part of it. It could be that he didn't intentionaly save the trio, but it was coincidence that he caught Sirius at the same time as Harry had, and chose to capture Sirius and save Harry at the same time. Why? Becuase it would put him more in Dumbledore's favor, make him a little bit more trusted. As he says in Spinners End, he didn't know that Voldemort was alive at that time, and was just following Dumbledore to stay out of Azkaban. If Dumbledore managed to find out that he let Sirius kill Harry he'd be in a big heep of trouble with Dumbledore and off to Azkaban he'd go.

But I agree with you. I think Snape is an awesome character. Very well portayed.

 

[Joie D]

I always thought that Snape saved Harry in book three because he felt that the life-bond hadn't been completely erased. In other words, the first time he tried to save Harry, he didn't really succeed, so he still had an obligation.

Of course, this doesn't explain why he looked in on Sirius after Harry's warning in Order of the Phoenix. Perhaps he was trying to keep his cover?

I'm pretty much in the "Snape is evil" camp, although I see-saw occasionally. most of the arguments I see for Snape being good center around the idea that Dumbledore must have planned his death. These arguments are based on the idea that Dumbledore is too intelligent, too great a wizard, not to have seen his murder coming. The idea that if he trusted Snape, Snape must be innocent.
The last two books have both focused heavily on the idea that Dumbledore is not infallible. In Order of the Phoenix he chose the wrong person to teach Harry Occlumency, refused to understand that Sirius simply couldn't live holed up in Grimmauld Place, and was forced to leave Hogwarts. In Half-Blood Prince he failed to learn that one Horcrux had already been taken from its hiding place and continued to place trust in the man who ended up killing him.  

[[Ernie]]

Panda Chi

But you would think, that if they had planned this, Dumbledore would have explained it to the rest of the Order and to Harry. Because no one really trusted him before, and now that he's killed Dumbledore, no one's ever going to trust him again no matter what he says.

He might not have told them because they would try to stop Snape. Even if Dumbledore told them not to get in the way, why would they listen to him? He was going to die, why would they let their leader die, even if he said for them to let it happen?

And, honestly, I can't see how you can judge his moral side by one or two actions. Something this big is going to have lots of depth. Plus, Snape knew he would probably do it anyway.

HBP, American Hardcover Edition, pg 34

Snape caught hold of her wrists and removed her clutching hands. Looking down into her tearstained face, he said slowly, "He intends me to do it in the end, I think. But he is determined that Draco should try first. You see, in the unlikely even that Draco succeeds, I shall be able to remain at Hogwarts a little longer, fulfilling my useful role as a spy."

Another hole in your argument: Snape was rather hesitant in taking the Unforgiveable Vow. He acted as if he was doing it under orders, or pressure at the very least.

HBP, American Hardcover Edition, pg 35-37

If you are there to protect him... Severus, will you swear it? Will you make the Unbreakable Vow?"

"The Unbreakable Vow?"

Snape's expression was blank, unreadable. Bellatrix, however, let out a cackle of triumphant laughter.

"Aren't you listening, Narcissa? Oh, he'll try, I'm sure... The usual empty words, the usual slithering out action... oh, on the Dark Lords orders, of course!"

Snape did not look at Bellatrix. His black eyes were fixed upon Narcissa's tear-filled blue ones as she continued to clutch his hand.

"Certainly, Narcissa, I shall make the Unbreakable Vow," he said quietly. "Perhaps your sister will consent to be our Bonder."

Bellatrix's mouth fell open. Snape lowered himself so that he was kneeling opposite Narcissa. Beneath Bellatrix's astonished gaze, they grasped right hands.

"You will need your wand, Bellatrix." said Snape coldly.

She drew it, still looking astonished.

"And you will need to move a little closer." he said.

She stepped forward so that she stood over them, and placed the tip of her wand on their linked hands.

Narcissa spoke.

"Will you, Severus, watch over my son Draco, as he attempts to fulfill the Dark Lord's wishes?"

"I will." said Snape.

A thin tongue of brilliant flame issued from the wand and wound its way around their hands like a hot-wire.

"And will you, to the best of your ability, protect him from harm?"

"I will." said Snape.

A second tongue of flame shot from the wand and interlinked with the first, making a fine, glowing chain.

"And should it prove necessary...if it seems Draco will fail..." whispered Narcissa (Snape's hand twitched within hers, but did not draw away), "will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?"

There was a moment's silence. Bellatrix watched, her wand upon their clasped hands, eyes wide.

"I will." said Snape.

He didn't agree to it without hesitation or resistance, as you seem to be implying.

What Hagrid Overhead:

HBP, American Hardcover Edition, pg. 405

I dunno, Harry, I shouldn'ta heard it at all! I--well, I was comin' outta the forest the other evenin' an' I overheard 'em talking -- well, arguin'. Didn't like ter draw attention to myself, so I sorta skulked a bit an' tried not ter listen, but it was--well, a heated discussion an' it wasn' easy ter block it out."

"Well?" Harry urged him, as Hagrid shuffled his enorous feet uneasily.

"Well--I jus' heard Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too much fer granted an' maybe he -- Snape -- didn' wan' ter do it anymore--"

"Do what?"

"I dunno, Harry, it sounded like Snape was feelin' a bit overworked, tha's all--anyway, Dumbledore told him flat out he'd agreed ter do it an' that was all there was to it. Pretty firm with him. An' then he said summat abou' Sanpe makin' investigations in his House, in Slytherin. Well, there's nothin' strange abou' that!" Hagrid added hastily, as Harry and Hermione exchanged looks full of meaning.

So, what exactly was Snape trying to to slither out of? Obviously, I'm providing evidence for the argument that Snape was on orders to do something he really did not want to do, orders he must have carried out before he fled Hogwarts. Orders that could consist of killing Dumbledore for Draco.

Dumbledore is a pretty powerful wizard. He knew what Draco was up to, and could probably sum the boy up enough to know that Draco would not have the ability nor audacity to kill him (Dumbledore).

Not to mention, Dumbledore is a pretty skilled Legilimens. While Snape is also skilled in this area of magic, Dumbledore would probably be able to defeat him. Though, this argument is diminished due to the fact that Dumbledore trusted Snape (as far as we know) and so wouldn't try Legilimency.

Fawkes Never Saved Dumbledore

Fawkes would have been capable of saving Dumbledore. But he did not show up. He was able to go from Hogwarts to the Ministry of Magic, how could he not have gone from Dumbledore's office to the tower? The only explanations thus far are:

1. He was under some sort of spell that kept him from moving, even with his form of apparition.

2. He was ordered not to.

Personally, I find the second more likely. Not because it supports my argument more, but because there was no mention of the DE's ever being in Dumbledore's office. Plus, the DE's would never have had a chance to take the spell off Fawkes, and there was nothing about him being under anything.

DON'T CALL ME A COWARD!111!!@1

When Harry encounters Snape out on the lawn after Dumbledore is killed, he calls him a coward after Snape repeatedly blocks Harry's attacks. Snape gets rather pissed.

HBP, American Hardcover Edition, pg 603

"Cowardly, did you call me, Potter?" shouted Snape. "Your father would never attack me unless it was four on one, what you call him, I wonder?"

HBP, American Hardcover Edition, pg 604

"DON'T--" screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind him--"CALL ME A COWARD!"

As we all know, it takes a lot to drive a person to the point Snape was at in the latter quote. So, what could have caused it? Doing something he had to must up all the courage he had to do? Possibly killing someone he did not want to kill? This goes hand in hand with my first argument, What Hagrid Overhead. Snape was obviously being ordered to do something he did not want to do.

Dumbledore Appointed Snape as DADA Teacher:

JKR was able to continue the jinx in this book by placing Snape in the position of DADA teacher. This jinx has been discussed many times in the books, one of which between Dumbledore and Harry:

HBP, American Hardcover Edition, pg 446

"Oh, he [Voldemort] definitely wanted the Defense Against the Dark Arts job," said Dumbledore. "The aftermath of our little meeting proved that. You see, we have never been able to keep a Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher for longer than a year since I refused the post to Lord Voldemort"

So, Dumbledore knows of the jinx. So why is it that he appointed Snape, knowing full well that he would not last more than a year? He would have, at least, known that Snape had the intention of leaving, or perhaps wanted Snape to leave. But he trusted Snape a great deal, so it doesn't seem like he would have intentions of harming the Voldemort Cause.

On a side note...

I have no doubt in my mind that Dumbledore's alleged reason for trusting Snape was a poor one--so poor that it seems even Dumbledore was too trustworthy of it. One wonders if he said that to satisfy Harry, and kept the real, true reason from the masses.

Only Detention

This was one that really perplexed me. In the scene where Harry curses Draco and Snape discovers them, Snape obviously performs Legilimency to find out where Harry got that spell. We all know that Harry is NOT a good Occlumens, and so it is implied that Snape was able to get the information he wanted. He tells Harry to get his books, and Harry hides the book in the Room of Requirement. Instead, Harry brings Snape Ron's copy of the textbook. Snape appears to see right through this, but still only gives him a dozen detentions.

Why would Snape not give Harry a harsher punishment? In the past, it has been to keep Harry in school, to keep him safe, which would be on Dumbledore's orders.

Speaking of which...

Comeback to the "He's only doing it to get Dumbledore to trust him" Argument

This is the excuse I've heard everytime I present the argument that Snape was still sticking to Dumbledore's orders. And, while it is certainly plausible, I can whip up a counter argument to it.

Could not the same thing be said for what he is doing to Voldemort and his followers? Snape has been flinging out excuses to them, where is the proof that he is just being neutral?

All I'm saying is that Snape could be neutral, and that "he's only doing it to get Dumbles to trust him" is not the end-all, be-all, winnah, argument.

Not all of the original arguments were discovered by me. I have read several arguments regarding this, and have looked them up on my own for confirmation. I've added my speculation. The only ones I have original credit for are, "Fawkes Never Saved Dumbledore", "Comeback" and "Only Detention"  

[Joie D]

[Ernie]

Fawkes Never Saved Dumbledore

Fawkes would have been capable of saving Dumbledore. But he did not show up. He was able to go from Hogwarts to the Ministry of Magic, how could he not have gone from Dumbledore's office to the tower? The only explanations thus far are:

1. He was under some sort of spell that kept him from moving, even with his form of apparition.

2. He was ordered not to.

Personally, I find the second more likely. Not because it supports my argument more, but because there was no mention of the DE's ever being in Dumbledore's office. Plus, the DE's would never have had a chance to take the spell off Fawkes, and there was nothing about him being under anything.

I'd like a clarification of your Fawkes theory. How exactly could he have saved Dumbledore? Certainly phoenix tears can cure poison and heal wounds, but can they block the unblockable killing curse? I seriously don't think so. Is there some other way he could have saved Dumbledore?  

[Ex-Professor Remus Lupin]

Joie D

[Ernie]

Fawkes Never Saved Dumbledore

Fawkes would have been capable of saving Dumbledore. But he did not show up. He was able to go from Hogwarts to the Ministry of Magic, how could he not have gone from Dumbledore's office to the tower? The only explanations thus far are:

1. He was under some sort of spell that kept him from moving, even with his form of apparition.

2. He was ordered not to.

Personally, I find the second more likely. Not because it supports my argument more, but because there was no mention of the DE's ever being in Dumbledore's office. Plus, the DE's would never have had a chance to take the spell off Fawkes, and there was nothing about him being under anything.

I'd like a clarification of your Fawkes theory. How exactly could he have saved Dumbledore? Certainly phoenix tears can cure poison and heal wounds, but can they block the unblockable killing curse? I seriously don't think so. Is there some other way he could have saved Dumbledore?

Order of the Phoenix, Fawkes took an Avada Kedavra...he just turned into insta-chick. Fawkes didn't do that this time...  

[Joie D]

Ex-Professor Remus Lupin

Joie D

[Ernie]

Fawkes Never Saved Dumbledore

Fawkes would have been capable of saving Dumbledore. But he did not show up. He was able to go from Hogwarts to the Ministry of Magic, how could he not have gone from Dumbledore's office to the tower? The only explanations thus far are:

1. He was under some sort of spell that kept him from moving, even with his form of apparition.

2. He was ordered not to.

Personally, I find the second more likely. Not because it supports my argument more, but because there was no mention of the DE's ever being in Dumbledore's office. Plus, the DE's would never have had a chance to take the spell off Fawkes, and there was nothing about him being under anything.

I'd like a clarification of your Fawkes theory. How exactly could he have saved Dumbledore? Certainly phoenix tears can cure poison and heal wounds, but can they block the unblockable killing curse? I seriously don't think so. Is there some other way he could have saved Dumbledore?

Order of the Phoenix, Fawkes took an Avada Kedavra...he just turned into insta-chick. Fawkes didn't do that this time...

Yes, but it's possible Fawkes didn't have time to make it to the tower, or that he was in the process of burning up at the time, or even that his link to Dumbledore was weakened along with the Headmaster's waning strength.  

[Panda Chi]

(For future reference: All of my book quotes will be taken from the Hardcover, US edition.)

[Ernie]

Panda Chi

But you would think, that if they had planned this, Dumbledore would have explained it to the rest of the Order and to Harry. Because no one really trusted him before, and now that he's killed Dumbledore, no one's ever going to trust him again no matter what he says.

He might not have told them because they would try to stop Snape. Even if Dumbledore told them not to get in the way, why would they listen to him? He was going to die, why would they let their leader die, even if he said for them to let it happen?

I rather doubt that anyone would quit listening to him just because he knew he was going to die. I believe that all of the members of the Order are very loyal to Dumbeldore. We know that Harry, in any case, is loyal and wouldn't deny Dumbeldore's orders just because he was dying. We know that Harry wouldn't:

Quote:

"Very well, then: Listen." Dumbledore drew himself up to his full height. "I take you with me one one condition: that you obey any command that I might give you at once, and without question."
"Of course."
"Be sure you understand me, Harry. I mean that you must follow even such orders as 'run,' 'hide,' or 'go back.' Do I have your word?"
"I - yes, of course."
"If I telll you to hide, will you do so?"
"Yes."
"If I tell you to flee, will you obey?"
"Yes."
"If I tell you to leave me and save yourself, will you do as I tell you?"
"I--"
"Harry?"
They looked at each other for a moment.
"Yes, sir."
"Very good. Then I wish you to go and fetch your Invisibility Cloak and meet me in the entrance hall in five minutes' time."

^Pages 550-551

Here we see Dumbledore, making sure that Harry would obey his orders. And Harry did. And I believe that any of the following would be just as loyal to Dumbledore as Harry: Mr. Weasely, Remus, Mad-eye, Tonks, or Mrs. Weasely. And it's not like he'd have to tell all of them. He could easily tell one of them, just as a witness. If he didn't, as I said before, Snape wouldn't have been trusted at all. And even if Snape did have useful information of Voldemort's plans, no one would trust him enought to even hear them, let alone believe them.

Quote:

"Harry, it might be important," Said Professor McGonagall.
"It is," said, Harry, "very, but he didn't want me to tell anyone."
Professor McGonagall glared at him. "Potter" - Harry registered the renewed use of his name - "In the light of Professor Dumbledore's death, I think you must see that the situation has changed somewhat."
"I don't think so," said Harry, shrugging. "Professor Dumbledore never told me to stop following his orders if he died."
"But--"
(and then it goes on to talk about Rosmerta and such.)

^Page 626

[Ernie]

And, honestly, I can't see how you can judge his moral side by one or two actions. Something this big is going to have lots of depth. Plus, Snape knew he would probably do it anyway.

HBP, American Hardcover Edition, pg 34

Snape caught hold of her wrists and removed her clutching hands. Looking down into her tearstained face, he said slowly, "He intends me to do it in the end, I think. But he is determined that Draco should try first. You see, in the unlikely even that Draco succeeds, I shall be able to remain at Hogwarts a little longer, fulfilling my useful role as a spy."

Wow. I had actually missed that when I when I was rereading Spinner's End. A very good point, of which I currently have no argument for. ;.;

[Ernie]

Another hole in your argument: Snape was rather hesitant in taking the Unforgiveable Vow. He acted as if he was doing it under orders, or pressure at the very least. I never said he wasn't hesitant. I said, that naturaly he would be hesitant, because even if he was willing to kill Dumbledore was the only person in the wizarding world who truely trusted him,

HBP, American Hardcover Edition, pg 35-37

If you are there to protect him... Severus, will you swear it? Will you make the Unbreakable Vow?"

"The Unbreakable Vow?"

Snape's expression was blank, unreadable. Bellatrix, however, let out a cackle of triumphant laughter.

"Aren't you listening, Narcissa? Oh, he'll try, I'm sure... The usual empty words, the usual slithering out action... oh, on the Dark Lords orders, of course!"

Snape did not look at Bellatrix. His black eyes were fixed upon Narcissa's tear-filled blue ones as she continued to clutch his hand.

"Certainly, Narcissa, I shall make the Unbreakable Vow," he said quietly. "Perhaps your sister will consent to be our Bonder."

Bellatrix's mouth fell open. Snape lowered himself so that he was kneeling opposite Narcissa. Beneath Bellatrix's astonished gaze, they grasped right hands.

"You will need your wand, Bellatrix." said Snape coldly.

She drew it, still looking astonished.

"And you will need to move a little closer." he said.

She stepped forward so that she stood over them, and placed the tip of her wand on their linked hands.

Narcissa spoke.

"Will you, Severus, watch over my son Draco, as he attempts to fulfill the Dark Lord's wishes?"

"I will." said Snape.

A thin tongue of brilliant flame issued from the wand and wound its way around their hands like a hot-wire.

"And will you, to the best of your ability, protect him from harm?"

"I will." said Snape.

A second tongue of flame shot from the wand and interlinked with the first, making a fine, glowing chain.

"And should it prove necessary...if it seems Draco will fail..." whispered Narcissa (Snape's hand twitched within hers, but did not draw away), "will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?"

There was a moment's silence. Bellatrix watched, her wand upon their clasped hands, eyes wide.

"I will." said Snape.

He didn't agree to it without hesitation or resistance, as you seem to be implying.

I never even implied that he didn't hesitate. I even brought that up. I think that he would hesitate naturaly. It would be hard to kill someone who truely trusts you no matter what kind of person you are (well, unless you're Voldemort, but he's kind of... minus soul... >.>). Snape had been working with and for Dumbledore for a number of years, and hardly anyone else really trusted him like Dumbledore did. Sure Dumbledore didn't give him the position as the DADA teacher. But he still let him be a professor.

[Ernie]

What Hagrid Overhead:

HBP, American Hardcover Edition, pg. 405

I dunno, Harry, I shouldn'ta heard it at all! I--well, I was comin' outta the forest the other evenin' an' I overheard 'em talking -- well, arguin'. Didn't like ter draw attention to myself, so I sorta skulked a bit an' tried not ter listen, but it was--well, a heated discussion an' it wasn' easy ter block it out."

"Well?" Harry urged him, as Hagrid shuffled his enorous feet uneasily.

"Well--I jus' heard Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too much fer granted an' maybe he -- Snape -- didn' wan' ter do it anymore--"

"Do what?"

"I dunno, Harry, it sounded like Snape was feelin' a bit overworked, tha's all--anyway, Dumbledore told him flat out he'd agreed ter do it an' that was all there was to it. Pretty firm with him. An' then he said summat abou' Sanpe makin' investigations in his House, in Slytherin. Well, there's nothin' strange abou' that!" Hagrid added hastily, as Harry and Hermione exchanged looks full of meaning.

So, what exactly was Snape trying to to slither out of? Obviously, I'm providing evidence for the argument that Snape was on orders to do something he really did not want to do, orders he must have carried out before he fled Hogwarts. Orders that could consist of killing Dumbledore for Draco.

Dumbledore is a pretty powerful wizard. He knew what Draco was up to, and could probably sum the boy up enough to know that Draco would not have the ability nor audacity to kill him (Dumbledore).

This is a could-be. I don't really have a valid arguement against it. D: Sorry. I'm sick. And I'm braindead. ><

[Ernie]

Not to mention, Dumbledore is a pretty skilled Legilimens. While Snape is also skilled in this area of magic, Dumbledore would probably be able to defeat him. Though, this argument is diminished due to the fact that Dumbledore trusted Snape (as far as we know) and so wouldn't try Legilimency.

Dumbledore may be gifted in Ligilimens, but Snape is an expert at Legilimens/Occlumency. I'd give a quote, but I'm not sure where it was in the books (or even which book it was it), but I know that Dumbledore at one point, said that Snape was better at Voldemort at Legilimens/Occlumency than Voldemort, which is how he was able to keep secrets from Voldemort (or keep secrest from Dumbledore...). And we all know Voldemort is a Legilimens expert as well because he was able to give Harry dreams and such. I must say, that though Dumbledore was one of the most powerful wizards ever, he's not utterly flawless. And he's not good at everything.

[Ernie]

Fawkes Never Saved Dumbledore

Fawkes would have been capable of saving Dumbledore. But he did not show up. He was able to go from Hogwarts to the Ministry of Magic, how could he not have gone from Dumbledore's office to the tower? The only explanations thus far are:

1. He was under some sort of spell that kept him from moving, even with his form of apparition.

2. He was ordered not to.

Personally, I find the second more likely. Not because it supports my argument more, but because there was no mention of the DE's ever being in Dumbledore's office. Plus, the DE's would never have had a chance to take the spell off Fawkes, and there was nothing about him being under anything.

What makes you think that Fawkes knew what was going on with Dumbledore at the time? For all Fawkes knew, Dumbledore could have still been gone. And how would Fawkes have ever known that Dumbledore was in trouble?

[Ernie]

DON'T CALL ME A COWARD!111!!@1

When Harry encounters Snape out on the lawn after Dumbledore is killed, he calls him a coward after Snape repeatedly blocks Harry's attacks. Snape gets rather pissed.

HBP, American Hardcover Edition, pg 603

"Cowardly, did you call me, Potter?" shouted Snape. "Your father would never attack me unless it was four on one, what you call him, I wonder?"

HBP, American Hardcover Edition, pg 604

"DON'T--" screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind him--"CALL ME A COWARD!"

As we all know, it takes a lot to drive a person to the point Snape was at in the latter quote. So, what could have caused it? Doing something he had to must up all the courage he had to do? Possibly killing someone he did not want to kill? This goes hand in hand with my first argument, What Hagrid Overhead. Snape was obviously being ordered to do something he did not want to do.

As I said before, I really doubt Snape really wanted to kill Dumbledore. I think that Snape was proud of himself for being able to kill someone that he had been close too, that had trusted him. Calling him a coward would hurt his pride. Especially after having just done something that he really didn't want to do, but had just mustered up the courage to do it. So that argument can really work for both sides. >.>

[Ernie]

Dumbledore Appointed Snape as DADA Teacher:

JKR was able to continue the jinx in this book by placing Snape in the position of DADA teacher. This jinx has been discussed many times in the books, one of which between Dumbledore and Harry:

HBP, American Hardcover Edition, pg 446

"Oh, he [Voldemort] definitely wanted the Defense Against the Dark Arts job," said Dumbledore. "The aftermath of our little meeting proved that. You see, we have never been able to keep a Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher for longer than a year since I refused the post to Lord Voldemort"

So, Dumbledore knows of the jinx. So why is it that he appointed Snape, knowing full well that he would not last more than a year? He would have, at least, known that Snape had the intention of leaving, or perhaps wanted Snape to leave. But he trusted Snape a great deal, so it doesn't seem like he would have intentions of harming the Voldemort Cause.

On a side note...

I have no doubt in my mind that Dumbledore's alleged reason for trusting Snape was a poor one--so poor that it seems even Dumbledore was too trustworthy of it. One wonders if he said that to satisfy Harry, and kept the real, true reason from the masses.

I've drawn a blank.
I really wouldn't know why he would let Snape be a DADA teacher. I'm going tro have to re-read HBP, I am.

[Ernie]

Only Detention

This was one that really perplexed me. In the scene where Harry curses Draco and Snape discovers them, Snape obviously performs Legilimency to find out where Harry got that spell. We all know that Harry is NOT a good Occlumens, and so it is implied that Snape was able to get the information he wanted. He tells Harry to get his books, and Harry hides the book in the Room of Requirement. Instead, Harry brings Snape Ron's copy of the textbook. Snape appears to see right through this, but still only gives him a dozen detentions.

Why would Snape not give Harry a harsher punishment? In the past, it has been to keep Harry in school, to keep him safe, which would be on Dumbledore's orders.

I do believe this was brought up in the books.

Quote:

"But why didn't he turn you in?"
"I don't think he wanted to associate himself with that book," said Hermione, "I don't think Dumbledore would have liked it very much if he'd known. And even if Snape pretended it hadn't been his, Slughorn would have recognized his writing at once. Anyway, the book was lift in Snape's old classroom, and I'll bet Dumbledore knew he's mother's name was 'Prince.'"

^Page 638

Also, about the 'dozon detentions.' It wasn't only just a dozen detentions. It was detentions for the rest of the year, which also made him miss the final Quidditch game, and I think Snape thought that without Harry Gryffindore would lose the champion cup, and all the blame would go on Harry because he was the captain.

[Ernie]

Speaking of which...

Comeback to the "He's only doing it to get Dumbledore to trust him" Argument

This is the excuse I've heard everytime I present the argument that Snape was still sticking to Dumbledore's orders. And, while it is certainly plausible, I can whip up a counter argument to it.

Could not the same thing be said for what he is doing to Voldemort and his followers? Snape has been flinging out excuses to them, where is the proof that he is just being neutral?

All I'm saying is that Snape could be neutral, and that "he's only doing it to get Dumbles to trust him" is not the end-all, be-all, winnah, argument.

I have to agree with you here. "He did it just to gain Dumbledore's trust" is a lousy come-back argument. Though it does work in some occations.

[Ernie]

Not all of the original arguments were discovered by me. I have read several arguments regarding this, and have looked them up on my own for confirmation. I've added my speculation. The only ones I have original credit for are, "Fawkes Never Saved Dumbledore", "Comeback" and "Only Detention"

Hee, all of my arguments are my own, using the books. I never have enough patience to read people's essays. ;.; Maybe I should write my own essays...

Anyway. Sorry my reply took so long. I happen to be sick, have have a terrible headache. And I'm currently totally and utterly braindead. >.<  

[Joie D]

Why would Dumbledore allow Snape as DADA teacher? Simple answer: He had no other choice. No one else was willing to do the job, and Dumbledore couldn't risk another Umbridge. Also, it allowed Harry to take N.E.W.T. level Potions, but that's a reason for Rowling having Snape teach DADA, not for Dumbledore doing so.


In Defense of Snape: Joie playing Devil's Advocate
I'm not sure Snape knew what was promising when he made the Unbreakable Vow. When I first read that chapter, I thought Snape was bluffing about already knowing Draco's mission, trying to find out information. When Bellatrix suggested the Vow, he had to make it or blow his cover.  

[Panda Chi]

Joie D

Why would Dumbledore allow Snape as DADA teacher? Simple answer: He had no other choice. No one else was willing to do the job, and Dumbledore couldn't risk another Umbridge. Also, it allowed Harry to take N.E.W.T. level Potions, but that's a reason for Rowling having Snape teach DADA, not for Dumbledore doing so.

Thank you. xD

 

[[Ernie]]

Joie D

I'd like a clarification of your Fawkes theory. How exactly could he have saved Dumbledore? Certainly phoenix tears can cure poison and heal wounds, but can they block the unblockable killing curse? I seriously don't think so. Is there some other way he could have saved Dumbledore?

OotP, American Hardcover Edition, pg. 815

But even as he shouted, one more jet of green light had flown at Dumbledore from Voldemort's wand and the snake had struck--

Fawkes swooped down in front of Dumbledore, opened his beak wide, and swallowed the jet of green light whole.

That's how.

Joie D

Yes, but it's possible Fawkes didn't have time to make it to the tower, or that he was in the process of burning up at the time, or even that his link to Dumbledore was weakened along with the Headmaster's waning strength.

Fawkes can apparate, how can he not have enough speed? The burning up is a good point, but if he were such a tiny little phoenix during and after the death, how could he have flown around? He wouldn't have grown enough.

Also, if his link with Dumbledore was strong enough that his own strength would weaken just as much as Dumbledore's, he would have died along with Dumbledore, and then been reborn in the ashes. Again, had that happened, he wouldn't have been developed enough to fly around.

Joie D

Why would Dumbledore allow Snape as DADA teacher? Simple answer: He had no other choice. No one else was willing to do the job, and Dumbledore couldn't risk another Umbridge. Also, it allowed Harry to take N.E.W.T. level Potions, but that's a reason for Rowling having Snape teach DADA, not for Dumbledore doing so.

How would he risk another Umbridge? That Ministry Educational Decree was withdrawn; it doesn't exist anymore.

Also, couldn't he have hired someone else in the Order?

Panda Chi

Hee, all of my arguments are my own, using the books. I never have enough patience to read people's essays. ;.; Maybe I should write my own essays...

Anyway. Sorry my reply took so long. I happen to be sick, have have a terrible headache. And I'm currently totally and utterly braindead. >.<

Okiday :B I'll get to the rest of your post this afternoon, I have to go to school soon. >.<;;  

[Panda Chi]

[Ernie]

Joie D

I'd like a clarification of your Fawkes theory. How exactly could he have saved Dumbledore? Certainly phoenix tears can cure poison and heal wounds, but can they block the unblockable killing curse? I seriously don't think so. Is there some other way he could have saved Dumbledore?

OotP, American Hardcover Edition, pg. 815

But even as he shouted, one more jet of green light had flown at Dumbledore from Voldemort's wand and the snake had struck--

Fawkes swooped down in front of Dumbledore, opened his beak wide, and swallowed the jet of green light whole.

That's how.

Joie D

Yes, but it's possible Fawkes didn't have time to make it to the tower, or that he was in the process of burning up at the time, or even that his link to Dumbledore was weakened along with the Headmaster's waning strength.

Fawkes can apparate, how can he not have enough speed? The burning up is a good point, but if he were such a tiny little phoenix during and after the death, how could he have flown around? He wouldn't have grown enough.

Also, if his link with Dumbledore was strong enough that his own strength would weaken just as much as Dumbledore's, he would have died along with Dumbledore, and then been reborn in the ashes. Again, had that happened, he wouldn't have been developed enough to fly around.

Actually, I thought the pheonixes developed rather fast...? Anyway, none of that answers my question, how would Fawkes even know what was happening to Dumbledore? Dumbledore was supposed to be getting the Hurcrux. And if Fawkes did know that Dumbledore was back, he probably didn't know that he was hurt and would assume Dumbledore could take care of himself.

[Ernie]

Panda Chi

Hee, all of my arguments are my own, using the books. I never have enough patience to read people's essays. ;.; Maybe I should write my own essays...

Anyway. Sorry my reply took so long. I happen to be sick, have have a terrible headache. And I'm currently totally and utterly braindead. >.<

Okiday :B I'll get to the rest of your post this afternoon, I have to go to school soon. >.<;;

Alright. ^^