Polytheism-Soft, Hard?

[Labores Luna]

I originally wrote this in response to the thread "Possible sign from the Goddess?" and decided that due to its length deserves a thread of its own...I am responding to what some members said about soft polytheism.

This is what I wrote:

Quote:

As someone who you may consider as being a “soft polytheist” I would like to make a few personal notes. I don’t usually attach myself to this term; however I cannot call myself a “hard polytheist” either. Here it goes.

To clear a few things up, I don’t view my belief on Divinity as being better than yours, nor do I claim to worship all gods or call upon them as though they’re merely ingredients of a recipe. I don’t view Freya and Kali as being the same goddess (according to your example), nor do I think they only encompass love and goodness or something along those lines. Gods to me are not just abstract ideas, but I don’t believe that they are as rigid as their mythology presents them. So I don’t think that they “rape” each other or despise one another, at least in the way that humans do to one another. This is more metaphorical to me than anything else. At the same time, I don’t view them as being one big happy family.

I believe that the stories and symbolism associated with them are human constructs, but that doesn’t mean that Gods are merely ideas. I indeed see them as Gods and Goddesses within their own right, although different ones can relate to each other across cultures. Even then, of course, there may be some differences, but to me this is more psychological than externally spiritual. Both of these exist with each other but I am mainly speaking from the point of our personal limited visions, if that makes sense.

Even if the Gods do “hate” one another I think that they still co exist with each other, as does everything. I think that this can be compared to the inner workings and conflicts within ourselves. I can say or subconsciously think something like “I hate it when I do this” and want it to end but that doesn’t mean that I am separated into totally different beings. While there may be separate parts and ideas, doesn’t mean that they are not part of a whole: Myself. In my personal belief there is not only a greater God and a Goddess (which to me IS more of an abstract idea) but a greater Divine union of all things, the oneness and whole of existence.

Edit: I realize that there may have been some confusion with the term "co exist" by this I meant existing together as part of a whole not existing happily side by side. Just to clear that up.

Also, I don’t equate natural objects as being purely “male” or “female” meaning that I don’t see the God as being the Sun and the Goddess as being the Moon. Indeed they are both a part of each and exist together within them. How we recognize these objects to be is again, psychological. If it is to ones benefit to view one over the other as being something then I don’t see anything wrong with this. But I agree that it is naive to say that the Sun is a God while recognizing a Sun Goddess at the same time.

To go into more detail I think that most of the things we experience act as a symbol. So when I say that I think that our view of the Gods act as “symbols”, I also view myself, my family, and the components of the world around me to be “symbols” in a sense as well. For me this can’t be summed up into the view of different “faces” as what is common among new age belief. Different perspectives, objects, feelings etc. in life serve as tangible (even if mentally tangible) ideas that we can better interact with in order to further explore ourselves and the world, contributing towards our own evolution/completion. The purest sense of “reality” to me is inperceivable. Honestly I don’t think it matters much if you believe the Gods work as strictly as their mythology presents them or if you turn them into a more unique personal deity. I could go into the idea that different “realities” can be partially established and there would be some conflict in working with the Gods in certain ways…but that is another discussion I’ll leave for a rainy day.

I’m not claiming this view to be “perfect” as it is always evolving but I’m sure that some of you will find something “wrong” with it somehow. As somebody who works with Gods but does not view them as being entirely separate beings I just wanted to share my view, and now you are probably wondering why I am even bothered going on this tangent. Who knows. But I would love to have a more in depth discussion if anybody is interested as long as it isn’t characterized by assumptions or flaming. We all have things to learn…
And just to clarify, I’m not trying to prove anything or look for validation; I only want to communicate ideas.”

----

So let us go back to the topic of what defines hard and soft polytheism, because I think there is a gray line. The Wikipedia article on polytheism (tell me if you think there's a better general source I should use, though I imagine that opinions vary) defines "soft polytheism" as:

Quote:

"a variety of polytheism in which adherents believe in many gods or goddesses but consider them to be manifestations or "aspects" of a single god (or god and goddess) rather than completely distinct entities..."Soft polytheists" regard their multiplicity of gods as being manifestations of either common entities, or representing different aspects or facets of a single personal god, the latter also sometimes known as "inclusive monotheists", as are many modern neopagan groups"
link

and defines "hard polytheism" as

Quote:

"Hard polytheism" is most prevalent in mythology, where the gods appear as independent agents who can be, and often are, in conflict with one another. An example of hard polytheism is Euhemerism, the postulate that all gods are in fact historical humans.
link

So now I have a few questions.

1. If you consider yourself to be a hard polytheist, do you believe that the Gods are historical beings that once walked the Earth, or physically exist/ed somewhere else? Do you view your Gods as being a part of nature, ideas behind physical nature, or something entirely different? A combination of things? can worshiping one God cause jealously on behalf of another? How important is it to you that you follow exact mythology and practices of the people who originally recognized these Gods? Add anything else you would like to include.

Edit: By "historical beings that once walked the Earth, or physically exist/ed somewhere else" I meant either or a combination of both.

2. If you consider yourself to be a soft polytheist, do you view the Gods as merely ideas/human creations, or do they exist outside of our own thought? If so, in what ways? Do you initially recognized a greater God/Goddess/All more than separate Gods themselves, or equally? Add anything else you would like to include.

3. To both: What kind of relationships do you have with your Gods, and how is this influenced and/or limited by your view of the nature of them? Would you consider it to be more of the other way around? When somebody else has a relationship with a God/dess of the same name as yours, do you consider this to be the same deity or both personal ones? Have there been cases where you've become offended over how others view the Gods you're connected with? Add anything else you would like to include.

Now I am becoming rather sleepy so I will think of better questions later on. As far as I can determine at this point, I'm not sure if I can really be defined as being a soft or hard polytheist, since I hold views from both, alongside others. but I don't think that titles are really that important.

Any other ideas on the subject are welcomed.  

[ShadowSharrow]

Faeryselene

1. If you consider yourself to be a hard polytheist,

Yes.

do you believe that the Gods are historical beings that once walked the Earth, or physically exist/ed somewhere else?

Some of them, Yes.

Do you view your Gods as being a part of nature,

Some of them.

ideas behind physical nature, or something entirely different?

both

A combination of things?

Again it depends on the god.


can worshiping one God cause jealously on behalf of another?

Yes.

How important is it to you that you follow exact mythology and practices of the people who originally recognized these Gods?

Very, or as closely as I can while being respectful.



3. To both: What kind of relationships do you have with your Gods,

That depends on the gods themselves.

and how is this influenced and/or limited by your view of the nature of them?

limited by the fact I am human


When somebody else has a relationship with a God/dess of the same name as yours, do you consider this to be the same deity or both personal ones?

they may use the same name but I can usualy swiftly tell if the have any idea of the concept of that deity and if they have a relationships with the same one I do.


Have there been cases where you've become offended over how others view the Gods you're connected with?

Yes hugely so

 

[CuAnnan]

Faeryselene

If you consider yourself to be a hard polytheist

Yes.

Faeryselene

do you believe that the Gods are historical beings that once walked the Earth or physically exist/ed somewhere else?

Some were, some weren't.
Some are extratemporal beings, some have ascended from humanity into Godhood.

Faeryselene

Do you view your Gods as being a part of nature

I think this is pretty much answered with the above.
Some are extratemportal. Some are extranatural. Some aren't.

Faeryselene

can worshiping one God cause jealously on behalf of another?

Yup.

Faeryselene

How important is it to you that you follow exact mythology and practices of the people who originally recognized these Gods?

I'd really rather not follow the mythology of my ancestors. It all ended pretty badly.
I try fairly hard to follow their practices, though. wink

Faeryselene

What kind of relationships do you have with your Gods

Depends on the God in question.
I get on fairly well with Lugh, Ogma and Annan.

Faeryselene

When somebody else has a relationship with a God/dess of the same name as yours, do you consider this to be the same deity or both personal ones?

Normally, if I can reconcile their understanding of Annan with mine, I assume they are worshipping Annan. If I cannot, they are crazy.
It's that simple. I am right, they are wrong.

Faeryselene

Have there been cases where you've become offended over how others view the Gods you're connected with

Wade McMorrigan.
Enough said.

Faeryselene

but I don't think that titles are really that important.

I believe Name is one of the fundamentally important things.  

[Starlock]

A wise man once said that the Divine presents itself to cultures and individuals in the way they are most able to understand. From this view, the various cultural Godforms may be traced back to some common root of human experience of the Divine and/or nature. In that, the various culturally specific deities have a common denominator somewhere and this might lead some to extrapolate that they are thus 'the same.' This may be true on some levels, but it is not on others.

As such, personally I can't really be described as a hard or soft polytheist. I'm both. I'm neither. I come at this question from what could be described as an ecological perspective. In an ecosystem, you've got individual organisms but they do not exist in a vacuum. They're also part of a greater system. There's individuality, uniqueness, and independent agents. But there's also sameness, interconnectedness, and dependency. The hard/soft polytheism question often feels nonsensical to me. So too does the "numbers game" (e.g. asking 'how many' the Divine is). It's like arguing about whether the picture below is of a forest or a bunch of trees. Nonsense! It's not in my nature view the world in such an all-or-nothing, black-and-white framework.

The OP is quite insightful with that third question there: she asks how one's perception of the Divine influences and limits how one relates to it. Because I can't be described as a hard or soft polytheist, or even a monotheist or a polytheist period, I have a very broad-spectrum approach to relating to the Divine. At times that's a frustrating and confusing challenge, but most of the time I enjoy the flexibility to learn from everyone else's view of the Divine. For my own practice, I focus more on certain points of view on the Divine than others but I'm able to relate to the other perspectives.

 

[maenad nuri]

First I'd like to say, very well thought out. I enjoyed reading it. Good arguments are so incredibly hot.

Quote:

1. If you consider yourself to be a hard polytheist, do you believe that the Gods are historical beings that once walked the Earth, or physically exist/ed somewhere else?

Are these oh so different? I think both can and have happened and will happen.

Quote:

Do you view your Gods as being a part of nature, ideas behind physical nature, or something entirely different? A combination of things?

Yes. Hestia is the Hearth. Dionysos is in the Vine, but they are also the idea and concepts and fully contributory to our understandings. They aren't merely concepts, but a driving force.

Quote:

can worshiping one God cause jealously on behalf of another?

Yes.

Quote:

How important is it to you that you follow exact mythology and practices of the people who originally recognized these Gods? Add anything else you would like to include.

Depends on the gods -- my gods? They were an open culture, and while reconstruction is an important methodology and is very good as a framework for innovation! But others? Not so much -- Closed cultures are closed for internal reasons.

Quote:

3. To both: What kind of relationships do you have with your Gods, and how is this influenced and/or limited by your view of the nature of them?

That's a hard question -- more the first part, because its immensely difficult to catagorize my relationship to any of the gods, much less Dionysos. I won't sugar coat it -- sometimes it SUCKS. Being pulled and prodded, in directions I'm not ready to go. It's joyful, but it is hard.

But this really lets me see them as individuals, because they do such different things sometimes. Hera, I have to approach. Dionysos comes to me and I to him. Aphrodite has taken residence since I built her a shrine.

Quote:

When somebody else has a relationship with a God/dess of the same name as yours, do you consider this to be the same deity or both personal ones?

Most of the time -- sometimes I think people are worshiping a god as they want them to be. Which I don't think is bad, just a little blind.

But when say, patches here is honoring Dionysos, I'm pretty sure it's the same one.

Quote:

Have there been cases where you've become offended over how others view the Gods you're connected with? Add anything else you would like to include.

Yes, Wade not withstanding (he lasted one day against me. I ROCK) there a few people I take issue with.

Quote:

Now I am becoming rather sleepy so I will think of better questions later on. As far as I can determine at this point, I'm not sure if I can really be defined as being a soft or hard polytheist, since I hold views from both, alongside others. but I don't think that titles are really that important.

To be fair -- I think this resides not as a binary -- they overlap, it's not always so clear cut. I typically call myself a hard polytheist, but sometimes I think I'm squishy.  

[TeaDidikai]

Faeryselene

but I don’t believe that they are as rigid as their mythology presents them. So I don’t think that they “rape” each other or despise one another, at least in the way that humans do to one another. This is more metaphorical to me than anything else. At the same time, I don’t view them as being one big happy family.

Here's the small hangup with this.

Why are you in a position to establish what gods did and did not do?
The mythology establishes things like how much Lugh hated Balor quite clearly. It point blank says that Shon was raped my Kom.

On a basic level, if you deny these aspects of the gods, you deny them as individuals.

It would be on par with stating that Wing isn't Irish in some cases.

Quote:

I believe that the stories and symbolism associated with them are human constructs, but that doesn’t mean that Gods are merely ideas.

What has led you to this understanding?ds?

Quote:

Even if the Gods do “hate” one another I think that they still co exist with each other, as does everything.

I have a problem with this world view. People do not universally co-exist with those that are gone outside of an monistic world view.

Quote:

While there may be separate parts and ideas, doesn’t mean that they are not part of a whole: Myself. In my personal belief there is not only a greater God and a Goddess (which to me IS more of an abstract idea) but a greater Divine union of all things, the oneness and whole of existence.

Monism is a wonderful world view up until it denies the inherent separation of things along the ideology of the essence.

Quote:

How we recognize these objects to be is again, psychological.

Why bother with theism at all at this point. If the assertion is that the essence of the theistic perspective is that it exists as a psychological coping mechanism for Monism- why not simply assert there is no relevance in the same way Buddhism does?

Quote:

To go into more detail I think that most of the things we experience act as a symbol. So when I say that I think that our view of the Gods act as “symbols”, I also view myself, my family, and the components of the world around me to be “symbols” in a sense as well.

I think your understanding of the word symbol is fundamentally flawed. Symbols represent other things. To class everything as a symbol denies it's self evident expression.

Quote:

Honestly I don’t think it matters much if you believe the Gods work as strictly as their mythology presents them or if you turn them into a more unique personal deity. I could go into the idea that different “realities” can be partially established and there would be some conflict in working with the Gods in certain ways…but that is another discussion I’ll leave for a rainy day.

This view actually ignores the reports of what the gods directly told individuals. Which- if you think they're false reports, why bother addressing the individuals you come to know via the mythology at all?

Since you're paralleling this with human experience, given that humans are able to rape, torture and murder one another- what has brought you to the conclusion that such is outside the nature of the gods?

Quote:

I’m not claiming this view to be “perfect” as it is always evolving but I’m sure that some of you will find something “wrong” with it somehow.

ninja

Quote:

If you consider yourself to be a hard polytheist, do you believe that the Gods are historical beings that once walked the Earth, or physically exist/ed somewhere else?

Depends on the gods. None of my mythology supports this, but some of the vaguely transcendence based ideologies do.

Quote:

Do you view your Gods as being a part of nature, ideas behind physical nature, or something entirely different?

How are you defining nature? My gods are not part of "nature" beyond the fact that I am a Monistic Hard Polytheist and that in some cases they express a metaphor as an object (or shape shift in other instances)- no.

But I don't speak for other theologies.

Quote:

can worshiping one God cause jealously on behalf of another?

Very much so.

Quote:

How important is it to you that you follow exact mythology and practices of the people who originally recognized these Gods?

Mythology? I can't. I'm a human. The traditions? Very. They maintain the oaths sworn. I'm not about to inflict impurity upon myself for the sake of my ego- not unlike how someone like Wing wouldn't break their oaths etc.

Quote:

To both: What kind of relationships do you have with your Gods,

Depends on the deity.

Quote:

and how is this influenced and/or limited by your view of the nature of them?

On a basic level my personal experiences with my gods and other peoples gods has defined their nature as being hard polytheistic. I have personal and historical accounts of what happens when individuals disrespect gods. I also have accounts and personal experiences of what happens when our word is kept.

Quote:

When somebody else has a relationship with a God/dess of the same name as yours, do you consider this to be the same deity or both personal ones?

If their assertions fundamentally contradict the very nature of the god- I make allowance that they might be a thought form. Usually this isn't the case- but it can happen.

Quote:

Have there been cases where you've become offended over how others view the Gods you're connected with? Add anything else you would like to include.

Yep- though, in at least one case, it was very much a troll in retrospect- but what do you expect when you equate rape with prostitution.

Quote:

but I don't think that titles are really that important.

Given that communication and words can and do have a lot of power- I can't say I agree with this.

I think you're more of a Monistic Polytheist than anything else based on your words. I personally add the term "Hard" in because Monism only goes so far to explain the dynamic nature of the world around us.

I also think that at a certain point you can divorce things from reality in the name of symbolism and metaphor, but this becomes a broken system in that sometimes, a thing is just a thing. ~shrugs~ Our lessons learned from said thing may not be tied to it's nature- but that doesn't mean it is not itself.  

[Deoridhe]

Faeryselene

1. If you consider yourself to be a hard polytheist, do you believe that the Gods are historical beings that once walked the Earth, or physically exist/ed somewhere else? Do you view your Gods as being a part of nature, ideas behind physical nature, or something entirely different? A combination of things? can worshiping one God cause jealously on behalf of another? How important is it to you that you follow exact mythology and practices of the people who originally recognized these Gods? Add anything else you would like to include.

No, I believe the gods are gods. I don't think the stories of their creation are factually accurate, but I do think there is symbolic truth to be found in there.

I consider everything to be nature, from gods, to rocks, to suspension bridges. Suspension bridges and multi-level highways are some of the more lovely things nature has to offer.

I think some gods are jealous gods. They usually advertise - or, rather, their followers advertise of their jealousy. I also think gods are not of everyday concern. The land, the people around me, the objects in my view, the choices that I make - those are of every day importance. Gods are more special; more sacred.

It is impossible for me to live as my ancestors did when they worshiped the same gods as I. Technology, philosophy, science - these are all things which have altered the world. Were I to not alter my thinking and worship in response, I would symbolically be not living like them in addition to actually not living like them; evidence points to humans of all stripes being rather adaptive.

Faeryselene

3. To both: What kind of relationships do you have with your Gods, and how is this influenced and/or limited by your view of the nature of them? Would you consider it to be more of the other way around? When somebody else has a relationship with a God/dess of the same name as yours, do you consider this to be the same deity or both personal ones? Have there been cases where you've become offended over how others view the Gods you're connected with? Add anything else you would like to include.

My gods are like... family. Family in a different country, where I haven't yet gotten the passport to get through, but family nonetheless. Sometimes they come to me, but it's rare and usually I have to call. The Old Man and his younger, troublemaker brother are most likely to stop by for something to drink, but sometimes the thunderbringer does just because he likes people. I don't know how limited this is by my view, as in this area I've not yet the skill to see outside my own view, nor may I ever.

The other ones dedicated to my old man, the Alfather, breaker of bolts and breacher of boundaries, seem to be talking about the same guy as I do. For some reason, although he's hugely popular, within the Asatru community there's a fairly common view of him. More people misjudge the hammer wielder as a braggart and drunkard than miss what an a*****e my old man is. I have sometimes gotten irritated with people's views of the gods, most particularly the female ones, but by and large I tend to run into more trouble being of the nature of the Masked One who throws his favorite into ruin than anything else. I'm also relatively hard to offend; talk to those closer to the Wise One Handed or Mjolnir's Master and you'll hear more horror stories than I'd remember, I'm sure.  

[MoonJeli]

I have a few questions, I hope they're not stupid or offensive. I've been very curious for a while, but a little shy about asking.

For those of you who are hard polytheist, do you believe that all gods ever described in every religion are individual, existing entities? Or do you believe in some individual gods or pantheons but not others, or that different pantheons have different statuses as entities (some constructs, some independent entities, etc.)? How have you determined these things for yourself? In terms of accompanying mythos, do you find any contradictions between the stories of one pantheon or individual god you believe in, and that of others that you believe in? If so, how do you reconcile these different accounts?  

[TeaDidikai]

MoonJeli

For those of you who are hard polytheist, do you believe that all gods ever described in every religion are individual, existing entities?

That's tricky. I think they all exist. I don't think all of them are deities. At the very least- some of them are thought forms.

Of the worlds religions, most exist. The classification of "worlds religions" hangs on the dynamic of the cultures that established the tradition.

Quote:

How have you determined these things for yourself?

For the ones I have direct experience with, observation. The ones I don't- if they belong to a culture with a documented tradition, I give them the benefit of the doubt until it is established otherwise.

Quote:

In terms of accompanying mythos, do you find any contradictions between the stories of one pantheon or individual god you believe in, and that of others that you believe in?

Could you explain further?  

[Deoridhe]

MoonJeli

For those of you who are hard polytheist, do you believe that all gods ever described in every religion are individual, existing entities? Or do you believe in some individual gods or pantheons but not others, or that different pantheons have different statuses as entities (some constructs, some independent entities, etc.)? How have you determined these things for yourself?

It goes roughly like this. I have experienced certain deities as distinct within my experiences with the Norse pantheon. I have had passing moments with gods of other traditions, and they feel different. People I trust and believe tell me they experience their gods distinctly, and as different from mine. I observe that in nature variety is encouraged,even requisite, and that different places have different creatures, different customs, different points of view. Given the last observation, the logical conclusion is that there are lots of gods who have flourished as all living things flourish.

As for how I determined this...

I don't know where you live, but have you ever gone to a place so completely different from it that it was a shock? Did the land "feel" the same? I get a similar "feel" between different deities in different religious experiences. Until I went to the desert, I did not UNDERSTAND the Kachina at all; they seemed strange to me. Having been in the desert where the Hopi have long lived, I suddenly UNDERSTOOD a sliver of why they are as they are, and this gave me a new understanding and appreciation of the landspirits I was more casually acquainted with.

MoonJeli

In terms of accompanying mythos, do you find any contradictions between the stories of one pantheon or individual god you believe in, and that of others that you believe in? If so, how do you reconcile these different accounts?

Contradictions are a necessary irony, I think. People have contradictions. Creatures have contradictions. Lands have contradictions. To expect gods to not is placing them apart, not with, in a way which I think does damage.  

[MoonJeli]

TeaDidikai

MoonJeli

In terms of accompanying mythos, do you find any contradictions between the stories of one pantheon or individual god you believe in, and that of others that you believe in?

Could you explain further?

I think mostly I mean when different accounts of creation (or the end of the world), or purposes of humankind, nature of reality or the soul, or similar ideas conflict. My unfounded ideas for how these might be reconciled have been that perhaps people believe the stories apply to a different plane/world, are metaphorical rather than literal, or apply only to the individual god's/pantheon's people.  

[patch99329]

If you consider yourself to be a hard polytheist, do you believe that the Gods are historical beings that once walked the Earth, or physically exist/ed somewhere else?
Both? I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.

Do you view your Gods as being a part of nature, ideas behind physical nature, or something entirely different? A combination of things?
Again, both. As nuri pointed out, Hestia is the hearth. But in my opinon thay is not ALL she is. There is deity behind that physical manifestation.

can worshiping one God cause jealously on behalf of another?
Yep. Lets look at YHVH.

How important is it to you that you follow exact mythology and practices of the people who originally recognized these Gods?
Seeing as my gods come from an open culture. It's not imperative. Although I think people have to look at the GODS in the correct cultural context, the actual worship is different. However, I personaly like to be all historical with some of my practices, for the aesthetic quality if anything.

What kind of relationships do you have with your Gods, and how is this influenced and/or limited by your view of the nature of them?
For the majority I have a very simple relationship. I respect them and honour them as necessary. They sometimes poke their noses into my life and help out.
For the ones I am close to I have an emotional attachment. Through ritual and UPG I have gained insight into their 'personalities' and I know I can turn to them for help.

When somebody else has a relationship with a God/dess of the same name as yours, do you consider this to be the same deity or both personal ones?
Depends, I think sometimes people take a deity out of context, and it is't really the same deity.
This uber crone sooper magickal Hekate, for instance.

But I can usually get an idea if the person is working with the same deity by things like UPG. Do we get similar? And if they view the deity in the same way I do.
If someone said 'I get the impression Dionysos is a total virgin' then ehe...not the same god.

Have there been cases where you've become offended over how others view the Gods you're connected with?
Sometimes. I don't like it when people take the gods and bastardize them all over the place.  

[TeaDidikai]

MoonJeli

I think mostly I mean when different accounts of creation (or the end of the world), or purposes of humankind, nature of reality or the soul, or similar ideas conflict. My unfounded ideas for how these might be reconciled have been that perhaps people believe the stories apply to a different plane/world, are metaphorical rather than literal, or apply only to the individual god's/pantheon's people.

Thanks. That was the information I needed.

I actually don't see a whole lot of contradiction in the bulk of the worlds mythologies. Perhaps it is the translations I am using, but the majority of them don't assert universal creation- not even YHVH's initial mythologies do that.

In essence, I fall closer to the idea that they "apply only to the individual god's/pantheon's people".

When we look at the actual understanding of what The World (note caps) was thousands of years ago- we come to see that it was pretty much as far as one could travel within reason.

The idea of a patchwork planet doesn't strike me as unreasonable.  

[patch99329]

MoonJeli

I have a few questions, I hope they're not stupid or offensive. I've been very curious for a while, but a little shy about asking.

Don't be. 3nodding

Quote:

For those of you who are hard polytheist, do you believe that all gods ever described in every religion are individual, existing entities?

This question gets me every time.
There are those that are of the opinion that there are only a few gods, and that all the world deities are different aspects of them. In plain black and white to me this does not make any sense. Odin (more or less the only deity I've ever had contact with, or even felt drawn to, outside of the greek pantheon) is not zeus. He just plain isn't to me.
However, there IS always the possibility that there was only a few deities to start with, and that these have divided into new deities. For example- Poseidon and Neptune are not the same to me. When I think about Neptune I just get a different feeling in my gut (not the best thing to go on, however) than when I ever work with poseidon. However, it seems likely that at one point they were the same deity.

Overall, I think the majority of the worlds deities do exist, some perhaps as different aspects of other deities, but probrably not. I think some deities might be thoughtforms though, for example- these deities that some neopagans make up. Like 'caffeina' goddess of caffeine.
 

[Labores Luna]

Wow well there are a lot of replies and I don't even know where to start. Thank you to everybody who has responded to the questions and has contributed other thoughts.

Tea-As I have stated before, I don't view my beliefs to be perfect or to be the one true way. They are just how I understand things at this point in time for myself.

I personally wouldn't know how much Lugh hates Balor because I have no relationship with either of them. I tend to think of this as attaching personalities. This isn't denying (from my perspective) their individuality from each other. Although it depends on what you mean by individuality.

"I believe that the stories and symbolism associated with them are human constructs, but that doesn’t mean that Gods are merely ideas."

What has led me to my understanding of this? Honestly I wouldn't even know where to begin. There are too many things. But I can hit on a few notes that have influenced my way of thinking. Across cultures there are Gods that "rule" over (for a lack of better terms) an idea/object (the ocean, the sun, fertility, hunting, death, music, etc) and while there are certainly variations on what these Gods are associated with and the relationships they play, they do have "ruling" aspects in common with the Gods of other cultures. It doesn't make sense to me that there are going to really be 739 different Sun Gods (at least for the Sun we know) although I am not implying that the Gods are merely these objects and ideas. At the same time there may be others associated with the Sun but not necessarily viewed as being the Sun itself. In either case I still see their personality, stories, and symbolism created through humans and imagination. They are real and we attach names, faces, and stories to them. This doesn't make them any less real, but it is how we interact with and relate to them. Does that clear it up a bit? (also, what is "ds"?)
And yes, 739 was just a random number =p

Quote:

Quote:

Even if the Gods do “hate” one another I think that they still co exist with each other, as does everything.

I have a problem with this world view. People do not universally co-exist with those that are gone outside of an monistic world view.

Well that's nice that you have a problem with it. My view is very similar to that of Starlocks...actually she hit the nail right on the head with

Starlock

In an ecosystem, you've got individual organisms but they do not exist in a vacuum. They're also part of a greater system. There's individuality, uniqueness, and independent agents. But there's also sameness, interconnectedness, and dependency.

I think that basically sums it up for me. In a sense I could be considered monotheistic because while I view the universe as being made of different parts, they are never truly apart from one another. While I recognize the people around me as individuals, I don't deny the fact that we're part of the same being and existence. This could be said for my view of the Gods. Since I do see them as individuals as well, technically I could be considered polytheistic. If one wanted. But as I said, these titles aren't entirely important... and by "important" I meant I don't feel that I should necessarily have to classify myself regarding my view on the nature of the Gods at this point in time since it is 1. open to change and 2. I'm not sure if there's a classification I would feel comfortable calling myself right now. I'll keep Monist Polytheist in mind though.


Edit: I realize that there may have been some confusion with the term "co exist" by this I meant existing together not existing happily side by side. I'll put this in main post as well...

Tea

Why bother with theism at all at this point. If the assertion is that the essence of the theistic perspective is that it exists as a psychological coping mechanism for Monism- why not simply assert there is no relevance in the same way Buddhism does?

This would be an oversimplification of my views. To me it sounds like "why bother with life at all" and while some of my beliefs might sound Buddhist there are many others which cannot fit into that world view...I find relevance in the perceivable world around me and I believe that we perceive for a reason. Part of it because it is necessary for evolvement and because it is part of what makes life beautiful and the experience that it is. This can't be summed up into the concept of theism because for me this deals with everything myself, this computer, the door across the room, the oak down the street. Like the Gods I do not deny these things, nor my emotions or thoughts. In a sense they are real, in another they are like a dream. The world that we perceive is an expression which we are constantly interacting with, and it is not the end all be all.

Tea

I think your understanding of the word symbol is fundamentally flawed. Symbols represent other things. To class everything as a symbol denies it's self evident expression.

Perhaps "symbol" isn't the right word. I'll try to think of a better term for this. Although there are too many things that I have trouble classifying into words.

Tea

This view actually ignores the reports of what the gods directly told individuals. Which- if you think they're false reports, why bother addressing the individuals you come to know via the mythology at all?

Since you're paralleling this with human experience, given that humans are able to rape, torture and murder one another- what has brought you to the conclusion that such is outside the nature of the gods?

Again, this is too much of a simplification on my behalf. I don't think that individuals gave gods "false reports" or that the mythology is unimportant and untrue. Like I said before, I take things like "rape, murder, torture" more as metaphors and I don't believe that the Gods are limited to our human experiences. There is a difference between Humans and Gods. We equate their experiences with our own because that is what we know as humans and part of how we relate to them on an inner personal level. This parallels also with different functions of the ancient societies that knew these Gods. Again, just my personal understanding. If you feel that the Gods rape each other, I have no problem with this whatsoever. I don't feel that your view is wrong, either. It is just not how I feel.

Thank you for your questions.