Why the War is Sexist

[Foetus In Fetu]

Or why, if FiF had a hammer, she'd smash pro-war supporters in the face for co-opting rhetoric on "women's rights" to support their cause.

This was written and published three years ago, but I think it's important that people know that these things were (probably are) going on in Iraq. US-centric, but I think that, regardless of what our position is on Iraq, it's important to think about the way gender and gender roles affect discourse on war in general, and the sexism [and racism] which is propogated in this discourse.

Some choice quotes:

In the 20th century, 90 percent of all war deaths have been of unarmed women, children, and men. As the occupation wears on, more and more Iraqi women and girls are killed -- reported as "collateral damage." [...] The tendency to devalue the enemies' lives is reinforced by not only racist but also sexist ideologies -- history is made by "our boys," and "enemy women's" deaths are not even acknowledged.
Emboldening mine.

[D]uring World War II, U.S. industrial workers were more likely than U.S. soldiers to die or be injured.

[A]s hospitals are destroyed or become unavailable, women in both Iraq and the U.S. disproportionately shoulder responsibility for their families' healthcare.
Emboldening mine.

The U.S. military trains men to devalue, objectify, and demean traits traditionally associated with women.

[A]ccording to the Veterans Association itself, over 80 percent of recent women veterans report experiencing sexual harassment, and 30 percent rape or attempted rape, by other military personnel.

A checklist used by the military to determine if rape reports are valid lists a women's financial problems with her partner and "demanding" medical treatment, as factors indicating she's lying.

The Army recently offered the perk of free breast implants for servicewomen, so its surgeons could "get practice." Meanwhile, it has a drastic shortage of rape kits in combat regions and refuses to pay for servicewomen's abortions even in the case of rape.

Just months after the invasion, increased back-alley abortions were reported in Baghdad as women lost access to healthcare and contraception.

Occupation will not bring women's liberation.

Discuss.  

[Prince Starchild]

Sexism is disgustingly prevailent in every aspect of our scoiety, so I'm not shocked by that. What did make me feel a little horrified was the fact that the US army doesn't pay for their servicewomen's abortions even after rape. That's just terrible :S
Occupation of any country by an American-dominated force will never bring any sort of liberation, anyway. The American public hate those they are 'freeing', thus it's all about the winning, the body count, not the liberation.  

[Foetus In Fetu]

Quote:

Sexism is disgustingly prevailent in every aspect of our scoiety, so I'm not shocked by that.

It saddens me.

It's also invisible: it's never even talked about, just perpetuated over and over. Racism is propogated in a similar fashion and likewise is rarely discussed, especially in the UK.

I was horrified by the idea that "demanding" medical treatment after rape means you're making it up. Also the fact that US Department of Defense has blocked rape cases as a "matter of national security".  

[Prince Starchild]

Foetus In Fetu

Quote:

Sexism is disgustingly prevailent in every aspect of our scoiety, so I'm not shocked by that.

It saddens me.

It's also invisible: it's never even talked about, just perpetuated over and over. Racism is propogated in a similar fashion and likewise is rarely discussed, especially in the UK.

I was horrified by the idea that "demanding" medical treatment after rape means you're making it up. Also the fact that US Department of Defense has blocked rape cases as a "matter of national security".

It's partly the fault of hard-line feminists, and those who exagerrated and stereotyped them until the general public had no care to listen to feminists at all, therefore silencing women's independent voice.  

[Foetus In Fetu]

princess lolifoxxx

It's partly the fault of hard-line feminists,

There's no such thing: not in the roving gangs of unshaved lesbians who hate men sense. That's another stereotype made up (note that no women ever burned their bras) and perpetuated by the -- yeah, I'm gonna say it -- patriarchy as a way of delegitimising feminism as a cause.

If patriarchy is silencing women, that's patriarchy's doing. It's not the fault of feminism in any way.  

[Prince Starchild]

Foetus In Fetu

princess lolifoxxx

It's partly the fault of hard-line feminists,

There's no such thing: not in the roving gangs of unshaved lesbians who hate men sense. That's another stereotype made up (note that no women ever burned their bras) and perpetuated by the -- yeah, I'm gonna say it -- patriarchy as a way of delegitimising feminism as a cause.

If patriarchy is silencing women, that's patriarchy's doing. It's not the fault of feminism in any way.

Sorry, but I really have to disagree with you there, because there are a few feminists that just come across as too strong or misinformed. Also, the patriarchy is as much an enemy of men as women, and I'd support the 'masculinist' movement much as I agree with the feminist cause. Men, too, are forced to conform to old stereotypes, and sure, while they have a greater degree of freedom, they're still unable to wear 'women's' clothes and all that kind of stuff.
I guess what turns men against feminism more so than just hard-liners, is women that demand double standards, and expect chivalry and equal treatment. You can't expect someone to carry your bags upstairs because you physically can't, then complain later that they were 'treating your differently because of your sex.'
As to how much this affects the original argument, I don't know. It shouldn't, because all humans should just be treated equally, and it's a shame that feminism has to exist. I'll generalise and say that most war reporters seem to be white, male and middle aged, with a university education. With such a priviledged background, it's no wonder they fall prey to ignorance. As for historians, old men that spend too much time with books and not enough with people are bound to begin thinking backwards. Neither of these are excuses, merely the beginnings of reasons.
The US, more so than the UK, has a history of ignoring women's rights. It calls itself the 'land of the free', but the free exist within a preset boundary. The US waves its hands around saying to us 'see our black rights movements, our gay rights movements, etc, etc', but it forgets the silence of women abused at home and by the powers that be. Britain and Europe, to a degree, are better with this, partly because we have never had another civil right issue with quite as much impact as the suffragettes. I'm not excusing us totally, though, because we're never going to be perfect. (Interestingly, when I think of hard-line feminists that give the movement a bad name, I think of American ones).

Kind of garbled this post, because I'm writing in a rush, but call me up on any points I don't fully explain or whatever, and I'll get back to the topic later.  

[Foetus In Fetu]

princess lolifoxxx

I really have to disagree with you there, because there are a few feminists that just come across as too strong or misinformed.

Such as?

I have come across far more people saying that feminists all hate men than I have ever met people (men or women) who self-identify as feminists and expressed misandrist sentiments.

In fact, I have never met a person who self-identified as a feminist and expressed misandrist sentiments.

princess lolifoxxx

Also, the patriarchy is as much an enemy of men as women, and I'd support the 'masculinist' movement much as I agree with the feminist cause. Men, too, are forced to conform to old stereotypes, and sure, while they have a greater degree of freedom, they're still unable to wear 'women's' clothes and all that kind of stuff.

Men are harmed by the patriarchy, but men are not harmed to the degree of women.

I feel bad that men are not allowed to cry or wear skirts, I do: but I feel worse for all the women who have been raped and beaten by men and never got justice for it.

And, yes, men are raped. And, yes, men are victims of domestic violence. But women suffer from both to a far greater extent than men, and it is as a direct result of patriarchal ideas about women.

When rape is a thing of the past, I will fight for a man's right to wear a skirt.

princess lolifoxxx

I guess what turns men against feminism more so than just hard-liners, is women that demand double standards, and expect chivalry and equal treatment. You can't expect someone to carry your bags upstairs because you physically can't, then complain later that they were 'treating your differently because of your sex.'

Name me a woman you know who has done this.

Then name me a feminist who has done it.

princess lolifoxxx

I'll generalise and say that most war reporters seem to be white, male and middle aged, with a university education. With such a priviledged background, it's no wonder they fall prey to ignorance. As for historians, old men that spend too much time with books and not enough with people are bound to begin thinking backwards. Neither of these are excuses, merely the beginnings of reasons.

I agree with this. Many white, middle-class men are unaware of (1) their white privilege, (2) their male privilege and (3) their economic privilege. That skews the way issues of oppression, including the oppression of women, are reported when they're reported mostly by white, middle-class men.

princess lolifoxxx

Britain and Europe, to a degree, are better with this, partly because we have never had another civil right issue with quite as much impact as the suffragettes. I'm not excusing us totally, though, because we're never going to be perfect.

The thing is, it doesn't matter to me whether we're "better" than America or not: we still have a long way to go on sexism, racism, homophobia and other issues of oppression.  

[Prince Starchild]

Foetus In Fetu

princess lolifoxxx

I really have to disagree with you there, because there are a few feminists that just come across as too strong or misinformed.

Such as?

I have come across far more people saying that feminists all hate men than I have ever met people (men or women) who self-identify as feminists and expressed misandrist sentiments.

In fact, I have never met a person who self-identified as a feminist and expressed misandrist sentiments.

princess lolifoxxx

Also, the patriarchy is as much an enemy of men as women, and I'd support the 'masculinist' movement much as I agree with the feminist cause. Men, too, are forced to conform to old stereotypes, and sure, while they have a greater degree of freedom, they're still unable to wear 'women's' clothes and all that kind of stuff.

Men are harmed by the patriarchy, but men are not harmed to the degree of women.

I feel bad that men are not allowed to cry or wear skirts, I do: but I feel worse for all the women who have been raped and beaten by men and never got justice for it.

And, yes, men are raped. And, yes, men are victims of domestic violence. But women suffer from both to a far greater extent than men, and it is as a direct result of patriarchal ideas about women.

When rape is a thing of the past, I will fight for a man's right to wear a skirt.

princess lolifoxxx

I guess what turns men against feminism more so than just hard-liners, is women that demand double standards, and expect chivalry and equal treatment. You can't expect someone to carry your bags upstairs because you physically can't, then complain later that they were 'treating your differently because of your sex.'

Name me a woman you know who has done this.

Then name me a feminist who has done it.

princess lolifoxxx

I'll generalise and say that most war reporters seem to be white, male and middle aged, with a university education. With such a priviledged background, it's no wonder they fall prey to ignorance. As for historians, old men that spend too much time with books and not enough with people are bound to begin thinking backwards. Neither of these are excuses, merely the beginnings of reasons.

I agree with this. Many white, middle-class men are unaware of (1) their white privilege, (2) their male privilege and (3) their economic privilege. That skews the way issues of oppression, including the oppression of women, are reported when they're reported mostly by white, middle-class men.

princess lolifoxxx

Britain and Europe, to a degree, are better with this, partly because we have never had another civil right issue with quite as much impact as the suffragettes. I'm not excusing us totally, though, because we're never going to be perfect.

The thing is, it doesn't matter to me whether we're "better" than America or not: we still have a long way to go on sexism, racism, homophobia and other issues of oppression.

s**t, totally wrong forum and thread to go into while drunk, but since my girlfriend isn't coming back for a whilewhat coice do I have.

I do agree with you on most, actually all the points that you raise. It is more important to tackle feminist issues before issues about men's rights, but I think it should be done simultaneously, if possible.

As for feminists that abuse their position, it's only token feminists and not famous or true feminsists that do that  

[hilizzy265]

here are two stories you might find interesting:
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=3977702 -there's a lot more to the story, but I figured that was a good place to start. there's jamiesfoundation.org and others.

http://womensspace.wordpress.com/2007/07/08/in-support-of-the-lesbian-seven-i-believe-patreece-johnson-renata-hill-venice-brown-terrain-dandridge-chenese-loyal-lania-daniels-and-khamysha-coates/
that has nothing to do with the war, but is still relevant to women's rights.

One thign from your site:
"Sheehan and Hurricane Katrina remind us that as the war’s effects are much broader…"
The war caused a hurricane? Ok, NOW I definitely support it ending- Florida needs insurance!

"The American public hate those they are 'freeing’"
In our defense, most are completely indifferent

"It's partly the fault of hard-line feminists, and those who exagerrated and stereotyped them until the general public had no care to listen to feminists at all, therefore silencing women's independent voice. "
While there are some extreme feminists, the issue is that there are so many people exagerrating to make people think they're all like that.

"And, yes, men are raped. And, yes, men are victims of domestic violence. But women suffer from both to a far greater extent than men, and it is as a direct result of patriarchal ideas about women."
About 10% of reported rape cases are men. When you consider how many more men than women would never admit it, the number must be higher. I don't think it's so much views on women(though of course that plays a part), but on the views of victory, power, and lust.

"When rape is a thing of the past, I will fight for a man's right to wear a skirt."
You'll be waiting a LONG time for it to be completely gone. In a sad way, guys being more 'flamboyant' will help. The rapist-type guys will freak out seeing guys in drag... probably beat them and rape them (most unfortunate, but true). Then those guys will join women in trying to stop it, then there will be the numbers to get it fixed.

I wonder how you feel about the slavery/women's rights issue. Many New England women set out to free slaves (very large number). Some because of morals (Religion had experiences a big revival around the time), and some knew it would give the right to vote to women.
They were a huge force in freeing the slaves, and ensuring their right to vote. Then at a women's rights conference (i forget the name, but it was important), Fredric Douglass (very important man in the anti-slavery movement) said something to the effect that women didn't need the right to vote because they hadn't suffered like the black men. (I can find the exact quote later- it's in my early AM hist. book at home). Black women were at the conference.  

[Foetus In Fetu]

princess lolifoxxx

It is more important to tackle feminist issues before issues about men's rights, but I think it should be done simultaneously, if possible.

For the most part, men should benefit from tackling feminist issues, e.g. breaking down gender roles. I don't think it's a zero sum (which is why it often frustrates me when men's rights are brought up, sometimes irrelevantly to the discussion at hand, in discourses on feminist issues).

princess lolifoxxx

As for feminists that abuse their position, it's only token feminists and not famous or true feminsists that do that

Which means the onus is not on feminism to make itself more palateable... I feel like this stereotype is clung to as an excuse not to listen to legitimate concerns for the health and well-being of women.

There are some men who are never going to find being told they need to give up privilege palateable, nomatter who is doing the telling: oh, they're anti-rape and anti-sexual harrassment, but they'll argue with you on what qualifies as rape and sexual harrassment, often defining it in disturbingly narrow terms -- and if you disagree? You're one of those hard-line feminists I hear so much about.

hilizzy265

here are two stories you might find interesting:
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=3977702 -there's a lot more to the story, but I figured that was a good place to start. there's jamiesfoundation.org and others.

http://womensspace.wordpress.com/2007/07/08/in-support-of-the-lesbian-seven-i-believe-patreece-johnson-renata-hill-venice-brown-terrain-dandridge-chenese-loyal-lania-daniels-and-khamysha-coates/
that has nothing to do with the war, but is still relevant to women's rights.

Will read them later, thanks.

hilizzy265

While there are some extreme feminists, the issue is that there are so many people exagerrating to make people think they're all like that.

Absolutely.

hilizzy265

About 10% of reported rape cases are men. When you consider how many more men than women would never admit it, the number must be higher.

That's speculation. If you can get a credible extrapolation, I'll consider it.

I think you're underestimating the patriarchy's power to silence women, though: think of the way rape is defined and the myth of rape as something that is always violent and often someone you don't know perpetuated in a way to make women question whether they have been raped or not (and men believe they are not at fault when they are).

I'm not just talking about date rape -- I've heard accounts of women waking up to find their boyfriends having sex with them, or of starting making out and not being able to push them off and disassociating/going limp [in the minds of the men, "resigning themselves/consenting to sex"]. And sadly, these women had a hard time convincing others it was rape.

All of that comes out of the way power dynamics play out between men and women in society.

hilizzy265

I don't think it's so much views on women(though of course that plays a part), but on the views of victory, power, and lust.

Again, I think that's a product of the way men are taught to view their power/masculinity and women's status as something weak, something to be dominated and/or protected.

Otherwise we start talking about whether men are inherently hardwired to seek power by subjugating women, and I don't believe that they are.

hilizzy265

You'll be waiting a LONG time for it to be completely gone. In a sad way, guys being more 'flamboyant' will help. The rapist-type guys will freak out seeing guys in drag... probably beat them and rape them (most unfortunate, but true). Then those guys will join women in trying to stop it, then there will be the numbers to get it fixed.

I think the skirt example was poorly chosen on my part.

I assumed when we're talking about the way patriarchy damages men that we were talking about the group of men it's engineered to empower, i.e. straight, middle/upper-class [+ white].

I feel like LGBT issues, transvestism and transgender/sexualism fall outside of that and are closely linked to feminism -- but I didn't instantly think of them when I made my post (which was not cool on my part, I'll own it).

hilizzy265

I wonder how you feel about the slavery/women's rights issue.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean. Although, I think that's an example of the way that women of ethnic minorities (not just black women) can be sidelined within movements purporting to fight for their rights.

It happens both within the feminist movement but also I think within the anti-racist movement, because neither of those movements make it a priority to look at and combat the way that racial oppression and sexual oppression intersect for non-white women.

Also the gay rights movement: the poster boy is a white man.  

[Prince Starchild]

Really, I do think that it's only the power of a few men distorting facts and using people as unwitting pawns to convince us that such issues are gone. It's not a discussion of women's right compared to men's, rather a conflict between human rights and conservatism in government and society. It's the perpetuation of outdated ideas and the allowance of newspapers such as the Daily Mail, etc, that stops this being dealt with, to a large degree. The fact that a sexist, racist and generally bigoted alternative is permitted to exist means that there will always be people that adhere to it, be it due to upbringing or true belief. Thus, there will always be acrowd willing to support unfounded, backwards views. Yes, I do think that a totally free press is to blame in part.

As for the classification of rape, I think it's a touchy issue, and one I'm not entirely able to comment on. I think there is a difference between rape that calls for immediate action, and the 'disassociating/going limp' kind. Obviously, in some cases, the second kind still calls for immediate action, but there are times when both parties in the relationship need to just sit down and sort it out between themselves. The reason I say this is because there are all sorts of people, and I think a degree of restraint on the subject would prevent an innocent man going to jail because of a bitter/estranged/etc woman (or vice versa, though I'm with Fetu on the fact that more women are victims than men).

Really, whether it be racist issues, LGBT issues or feminist issues, I think that the government and the press need to portray the people campaigning for their rights not as radicals with scary new views that your granny won't like, but logical reformers. And, if that means the press need state regulation, then I'm all for it. Extreme, maybe, but with the racism, sexism and homophobia spread both subtlely and blatantly in the press, I think it's called for.  

[Foetus In Fetu]

princess lolifoxxx

Really, I do think that it's only the power of a few men distorting facts and using people as unwitting pawns to convince us that such issues are gone.

Agreed. Many of the people who throw around stereotypes of feminists (and other human rights groups) do so out of self-perpetuating ignorance [and blindness to their own privilege/a feeling of being threatened], but these myths came from somewhere.

princess lolifoxxx

Yes, I do think that a totally free press is to blame in part.

I don't know if I agree. If the press isn't free, who holds the people in power to account? The problem with the mainstream press is that so much of it is owned by the people in power.

princess lolifoxxx

As for the classification of rape, I think it's a touchy issue, and one I'm not entirely able to comment on. I think there is a difference between rape that calls for immediate action, and the 'disassociating/going limp' kind. Obviously, in some cases, the second kind still calls for immediate action, but there are times when both parties in the relationship need to just sit down and sort it out between themselves. The reason I say this is because there are all sorts of people, and I think a degree of restraint on the subject would prevent an innocent man going to jail because of a bitter/estranged/etc woman (or vice versa, though I'm with Fetu on the fact that more women are victims than men).

People, especially men, need to be educated on what rape is and what consent is, and they need to be taught what a deeply traumatic experience rape can be. If people knew what constituted consent, there wouldn't be all these problems with "ambiguous consent" (and frankly, anybody who continues to have sex with somebody when there's any ambiguity in consent is a rapist).

And to clarify, I say "especially men" because women are generally taught about and taught to fear rape (even if it is the "stranger jumps out from behind a bush" variety) throughout their lives -- it's considered in their best interests for them to be educated on rape. It's not considered in men's best interests to teach them about rape, "because men are never raped, hur, hur", and so they're not educated and not forced to think about what rape is.

princess lolifoxxx

Really, whether it be racist issues, LGBT issues or feminist issues, I think that the government and the press need to portray the people campaigning for their rights not as radicals with scary new views that your granny won't like, but logical reformers. And, if that means the press need state regulation, then I'm all for it. Extreme, maybe, but with the racism, sexism and homophobia spread both subtlely and blatantly in the press, I think it's called for.

Right. My stance on these issues could probably be called "radical" -- but I don't believe that telling people to re-evaluate their assumptions about sex, race, class and sexuality or calling out prejudice and injustice when I see it should be considered radical.

Now let's try having this discussion in ED. wink  

[hilizzy265]

Foetus In Fetu

princess lolifoxxx

It is more important to tackle feminist issues before issues about men's rights, but I think it should be done simultaneously, if possible.

For the most part, men should benefit from tackling feminist issues, e.g. breaking down gender roles. I don't think it's a zero sum (which is why it often frustrates me when men's rights are brought up, sometimes irrelevantly to the discussion at hand, in discourses on feminist issues).

True. It can be annoying when people jump to men’s rights, but I find it more annoying when they do it because they don’t take you serious. I’d rather they walked away than mocked me.

Foetus In Fetu

There are some men who are never going to find being told they need to give up privilege palateable, nomatter who is doing the telling: oh, they're anti-rape and anti-sexual harrassment, but they'll argue with you on what qualifies as rape and sexual harrassment, often defining it in disturbingly narrow terms -- and if you disagree? You're one of those hard-line feminists I hear so much about.

and the sad thing is, there are a lot of people who aren’t anti-rape. Go on any comments section of an article where someone is claiming rape.

Foetus In Fetu

hilizzy265

About 10% of reported rape cases are men. When you consider how many more men than women would never admit it, the number must be higher.

That's speculation. If you can get a credible extrapolation, I'll consider it.
I think you're underestimating the patriarchy's power to silence women, though: think of the way rape is defined and the myth of rape as something that is always violent and often someone you don't know perpetuated in a way to make women question whether they have been raped or not (and men believe they are not at fault when they are).
I'm not just talking about date rape -- I've heard accounts of women waking up to find their boyfriends having sex with them, or of starting making out and not being able to push them off and disassociating/going limp [in the minds of the men, "resigning themselves/consenting to sex"]. And sadly, these women had a hard time convincing others it was rape.

That’s true as well. But thing of any gay guy, especially in grey rape. He would know he’d never have a chance in court. However, I’m going to revise my statement to “ considering how many people won’t/can’t admit/legally charge(someone with) rape, it’s impossible to say an accurate percentage, just that it happens to many people.

Foetus In Fetu

hilizzy265

I don't think it's so much views on women(though of course that plays a part), but on the views of victory, power, and lust.

Again, I think that's a product of the way men are taught to view their power/masculinity and women's status as something weak, something to be dominated and/or protected.

I just meant that a lot of smaller men and women get messed with, and I think that comes out of the ‘rush’ of domination, and it’s easier to achieve with someone smaller. And to twisted people, rape might seem fine if they feel ‘good’. Not so much women but small/weak things in general.

Foetus In Fetu

hilizzy265

I wonder how you feel about the slavery/women's rights issue.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean. Although, I think that's an example of the way that women of ethnic minorities (not just black women) can be sidelined within movements purporting to fight for their rights.

I meant the thing I said about the women getting slaves freed then being put on the sidelines. I had just read someone talking about how we all should feel bad for black men, how much worse they’ve had it than everyone else. That always annoys me.

princess lolifoxxx

Really, I do think that it's only the power of a few men distorting facts and using people as unwitting pawns to convince us that such issues are gone. It's not a discussion of women's right compared to men's, rather a conflict between human rights and conservatism in government and society. It's the perpetuation of outdated ideas and the allowance of newspapers such as the Daily Mail, etc, that stops this being dealt with, to a large degree. The fact that a sexist, racist and generally bigoted alternative is permitted to exist means that there will always be people that adhere to it, be it due to upbringing or true belief. Thus, there will always be a crowd willing to support unfounded, backwards views. Yes, I do think that a totally free press is to blame in part.

And dumb people look at the 60’s, see all the progress, and go ‘see, all better’. Unfotunately, after every huge leap forward there’s a group trying to push it right back. I think we’re in the push-back period, and need to fight to keep the issues out there to stop that.

princess lolifoxxx

As for the classification of rape, I think it's a touchy issue, and one I'm not entirely able to comment on. I think there is a difference between rape that calls for immediate action, and the 'disassociating/going limp' kind. Obviously, in some cases, the second kind still calls for immediate action, but there are times when both parties in the relationship need to just sit down and sort it out between themselves. The reason I say this is because there are all sorts of people, and I think a degree of restraint on the subject would prevent an innocent man going to jail because of a bitter/estranged/etc woman (or vice versa, though I'm with Fetu on the fact that more women are victims than men).

Men need to learn how to control themselves a bit though. If your partner is lying there dead, you should ask them what’s wrong. They probably aren’t even in the mood, even if they aren’t totally unwilling. If they don’t bother to find out, perhaps ( haven’t really considered if enough to be definite) they should still get in SOME trouble.

princess lolifoxxx

Really, whether it be racist issues, LGBT issues or feminist issues, I think that the government and the press need to portray the people campaigning for their rights not as radicals with scary new views that your granny won't like, but logical reformers. And, if that means the press need state regulation, then I'm all for it. Extreme, maybe, but with the racism, sexism and homophobia spread both subtlely and blatantly in the press, I think it's called for.

That would never pass here in the states. The crazies control some of the media, and the uncaring control a lot of the rest. Plus the First amendment… The USA wouldn’t exist if that happened.
Even the KKK is allowed to *meet*, they just can’t act on anything, or say it TO blacks/jews/ whoever.

Foetus In Fetu

And to clarify, I say "especially men" because women are generally taught about and taught to fear rape (even if it is the "stranger jumps out from behind a bush" variety) throughout their lives -- it's considered in their best interests for them to be educated on rape.

All people need to learn the REAL meaning of rape. If they’re only taught the behind-the-bush scenario, they will wonder what’s wrong with them when they feel upset after a boyfriend took advantage of them. After all, only strangers rape, right?
There is a lot more to be taught, and parents shouldn’tbe allowed to take their kids out of the class.

Foetus In Fetu

princess lolifoxxx

Really, whether it be racist issues, LGBT issues or feminist issues, I think that the government and the press need to portray the people campaigning for their rights not as radicals with scary new views that your granny won't like, but logical reformers. And, if that means the press need state regulation, then I'm all for it. Extreme, maybe, but with the racism, sexism and homophobia spread both subtlely and blatantly in the press, I think it's called for.

Right. My stance on these issues could probably be called "radical" -- but I don't believe that telling people to re-evaluate their assumptions about sex, race, class and sexuality or calling out prejudice and injustice when I see it should be considered radical.

Most very good and very bad things are radical. People need to be taught that radical doesn’t = evil.

Foetus In Fetu

Now let's try having this discussion in ED. wink

Put it in the chatterbox.  

[Prince Starchild]

I don't beleive most of the things discussed here are 'radical' in any light. They're merely the real results of nearly a century's worth of campaigns and liberation for women, results that haven't happened.

For when women are slightly unwilling, the idea of men getting in 'some trouble' might be all well and good, but I think it's too hard to police, and could be used by some people as a threat, and how do you police people using something like that to make another's life a misery? Only in repeated or remarkable cases sould somethin like that be policed, which is sad. Perhaps a more thorough understanding on men's part through more education on the matter might make the problem shrink a bit.

As for the free press thing, I know that it'll never get through, it just makes me sick to see the Daily Mail and these kind of papers perpetuating sick, backward views, and kids thinking it's ok because their parents read it.  

[hilizzy265]

princess lolifoxxx

I don't beleive most of the things discussed here are 'radical' in any light. They're merely the real results of nearly a century's worth of campaigns and liberation for women, results that haven't happened.

I don't think these things are radical, but some rights issues are radical to most people. That's why I think people need to learn that radical isn't always bad.

princess lolifoxxx

For when women are slightly unwilling, the idea of men getting in 'some trouble' might be all well and good, but I think it's too hard to police, and could be used by some people as a threat, and how do you police people using something like that to make another's life a misery? Only in repeated or remarkable cases sould somethin like that be policed, which is sad. Perhaps a more thorough understanding on men's part through more education on the matter might make the problem shrink a bit.

Perhaps people should be encouraged to report it, and if a few people report it against the same person soomething should be done. If those people were lying, it would come out in court.

princess lolifoxxx

As for the free press thing, I know that it'll never get through, it just makes me sick to see the Daily Mail and these kind of papers perpetuating sick, backward views, and kids thinking it's ok because their parents read it.

I've never read the Daily Mail, maybe one or two articles, but not the whole thing. I'll go online later and look at it. I also don't know British law well enough to know the terms of free speech and anti-hate laws, so I can't comment on how you guys can do things so much. I think one thing that needs to be fixed (at least over here), there is no rules against defaming(spll?) a group. So You can't say 'Mary Smith is a lying cheatin whore', but you CAn say 'all women are lying cheating whore. Kinda messed up.