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 Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:50 pm
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Hello, everyone. I'm coming out of a period of severe religious apathy and I can't shake the feeling that a deity (or perhaps multiple deities) is/are starting to speak to me. The problem is, I am not sure how to communicate with him/her/it. I come from a Christian background, but I have always had natural inclinations that tend toward paganism. In high school, when I should have been learning how to properly form a relationship with the divine, I fell in with a very closed-minded group of Christians who encouraged me to be equally closed-minded. I shut myself off to what I feel is my "true" nature and in doing so, I also rejected any practices that seemed "mystical" or "occult".
Now that I am 22 and nearly finished with college, I think it's time to really leave behind the indoctrination and borderline fluff-bunniness I've been a part of in the past and really figure things out on a personal level. I need to find my beliefs and act on them - but I'm not really sure how to begin. The relationship that I thought I had with God in high school consisted mostly of what the church told me to believe, but I never really felt any definite personal communication between us. Because of this, I now second-guess everything I think I might be feeling or hearing because I'm not sure if it's real or if I'm imagining it because I heard it somewhere.
I've tried a number of different kinds of meditation and attempted astral travel hoping to find a spiritual guide, but I'm no good at either - I just can't seem to quite get there. So, I suppose I'm asking for some suggestions of ways to communicate with one's personal gods. Something that might give me a way of knowing I'm not just thinking it up. How did you all discover and validate what your belief systems are (especially including communicating with your god(s))?
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Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:43 am
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Daffodil the Destroyer Hello, everyone. I'm coming out of a period of severe religious apathy and I can't shake the feeling that a deity (or perhaps multiple deities) is/are starting to speak to me.
Which ones?
Quote: I need to find my beliefs and act on them - but I'm not really sure how to begin.
Quote: Because of this, I now second-guess everything I think I might be feeling or hearing because I'm not sure if it's real or if I'm imagining it because I heard it somewhere.
Maybe it is good to second guess everything until you have gnosis about an aspect of faith.
Quote: I've tried a number of different kinds of meditation and attempted astral travel hoping to find a spiritual guide,
Why?
Why do you think "astral travel" is a good thing?
Why do you think you have a "spiritual guide"?
Why would one assume that jumping out of one's body is the way to find them?
Quote: I'm asking for some suggestions of ways to communicate with one's personal gods.
Why would one assume that gods are "personal gods"?
Why would what works for one god work for yours?
Quote: Something that might give me a way of knowing I'm not just thinking it up. How did you all discover and validate what your belief systems are (especially including communicating with your god(s))? |
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Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:03 am
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TeaDidikai Daffodil the Destroyer Hello, everyone. I'm coming out of a period of severe religious apathy and I can't shake the feeling that a deity (or perhaps multiple deities) is/are starting to speak to me. Which ones?
Quote: Quote: I need to find my beliefs and act on them - but I'm not really sure how to begin. Research is usually a good start.
Quote: Quote: Because of this, I now second-guess everything I think I might be feeling or hearing because I'm not sure if it's real or if I'm imagining it because I heard it somewhere. Why is that a bad thing unto itself? Maybe it is good to second guess everything until you have gnosis about an aspect of faith.
Quote: Quote: I've tried a number of different kinds of meditation and attempted astral travel hoping to find a spiritual guide, Why? Why do you think "astral travel" is a good thing? Why do you think you have a "spiritual guide"? Why would one assume that jumping out of one's body is the way to find them?
I'm not averse to admitting that I don't know a whole lot about how to do this, which I tried to be up front about - and the way for me to gain experience is to read, research, and try things, right? My goal is to have something real, and I need help learning how to do that.
Quote: Quote: I'm asking for some suggestions of ways to communicate with one's personal gods. Why would one assume that gods are "personal gods"? Why would what works for one god work for yours? |
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Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:58 am
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Daffodil the Destroyer I don't know, which is why I'm asking how to speak with him/her and find out.
Quote: Of which deities/pantheons? I've always tended to read a lot of mythology, so I'm familiar with quite a few, but I don't know where to concentrate my efforts. Or should I just read a lot of it and keep re-reading information until something clicks?
Quote: I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing; it's simply frustrating and it makes me feel like I'm not progressing.
Quote: I was taught a long time ago by a friend (and yes, it was verified in a few places, though I'll admit that I don't have a lot of experience with telling which ones are "good" - I don't remember which sources they were at this point, since this happened years ago) that "everyone has a spiritual guide" and that astral travel or "jumping out of one's body" was the best way to find them. Perhaps it might not be the best way for me, but I can really only use the tools I know of... which is why I'm asking for other suggestions.
Quote: I'm not averse to admitting that I don't know a whole lot about how to do this, which I tried to be up front about - and the way for me to gain experience is to read, research, and try things, right? My goal is to have something real, and I need help learning how to do that.
And what standards are you holding for the things that influence you?
Quote: I feel like I'm going in circles here. I knew as soon as I posted the phrase "personal gods" that you would probably take issue with it, due to reading your past posts, but I really didn't know a better way of phrasing it.
Quote: I am not necessarily assuming anything, just feeling that there is/are god/s that I should have some sort of relationship with, hence the use of the word.
Quote: feel rather directionless and am just looking for a few suggestions and perhaps some anecdotes that might help me figure out how to continue moving along here. |
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Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:11 am
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TeaDidikai Daffodil the Destroyer I don't know, which is why I'm asking how to speak with him/her and find out. If I may ask, what brings you to the conclusion that they are speaking to you to begin with?
Quote: Quote: Of which deities/pantheons? I've always tended to read a lot of mythology, so I'm familiar with quite a few, but I don't know where to concentrate my efforts. Or should I just read a lot of it and keep re-reading information until something clicks? What do you find interesting?
Quote: Quote: I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing; it's simply frustrating and it makes me feel like I'm not progressing. Might this stem from a false sense of how things should be and how you view other pagans?
Edit: Actually, I should clarify... it's really more the nature of the feeling that's vague, than the feeling itself... It's quite persistent at times, so its actual existence isn't that vague.
Quote: Quote: I was taught a long time ago by a friend (and yes, it was verified in a few places, though I'll admit that I don't have a lot of experience with telling which ones are "good" - I don't remember which sources they were at this point, since this happened years ago) that "everyone has a spiritual guide" and that astral travel or "jumping out of one's body" was the best way to find them. Perhaps it might not be the best way for me, but I can really only use the tools I know of... which is why I'm asking for other suggestions. Why do you think those sources are correct?
Quote: Quote: I'm not averse to admitting that I don't know a whole lot about how to do this, which I tried to be up front about - and the way for me to gain experience is to read, research, and try things, right? My goal is to have something real, and I need help learning how to do that. How do you define real?
Quote: And what standards are you holding for the things that influence you?
Quote: Quote: I feel like I'm going in circles here. I knew as soon as I posted the phrase "personal gods" that you would probably take issue with it, due to reading your past posts, but I really didn't know a better way of phrasing it. You don't know me as well as you think you do. I have no issue with personal gods or the phrase.
Quote: Quote: I am not necessarily assuming anything, just feeling that there is/are god/s that I should have some sort of relationship with, hence the use of the word. Why do you feel that though?
Quote: Quote: feel rather directionless and am just looking for a few suggestions and perhaps some anecdotes that might help me figure out how to continue moving along here. That's great. Myself I need more information before I make a suggestion. |
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Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:44 pm
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Daffodil the Destroyer It's just a feeling.. something happened to me a while back that I don't wish to discuss, and ever since then, if I try to go about my business without worrying about spiritual matters or finding my path... I just keep seeing things that bring it back into my mind - it creates feelings that I can't ignore.
Quote: Honestly, most of it... I've always found Greek, Egyptian and Norse mythology to be the most interesting of all, but I don't think I've ever experienced a real connection with any of it... at least, nothing that seems to resonate deeply within me.
Which ones come to mind most?
Quote: I don't think so - I think it just stems from the feelings I've been having that I mentioned above - feelings that there's a path I'm supposed to be on, but no matter what I've tried or how much or how hard I've attempted to meditate, I can't get any closer than just a vague sense that there's "something" speaking to me in a manner I can't quite understand yet. Edit: Actually, I should clarify... it's really more the nature of the feeling that's vague, than the feeling itself... It's quite persistent at times, so its actual existence isn't that vague.
How do you judge what "should" be?
What you "should" feel?
Quote: Again, I never said I thought any of it was necessarily "correct" for me - I did state that I have been working with the only tools I know of, and whether or not they are the ones I "should" be using they are the only ones I have. Again, this is why I am asking for other advice from other sources.
I mean- you have easy access to the sources, you have access to information on other cultures- you named three cultures that have very solid ecstatic traditions and you're working with pop-paganism because it was introduced by a friend- correct?
If you are interested in the Norse, Greeks and Egyptians- you know a bit about them, finding their traditions aren't too hard.
Quote: What do you mean how do I define real? It's something that exists - a personal relationship with whatever higher power I'm called by - something that isn't just something I imagined in my head and thought was real just because I wanted it to be.
Heck! You could go and make a deity shaped thought form and that would be as real as any other non-corporeal being.
Quote: Quote: And what standards are you holding for the things that influence you? I'm sorry, I'm not sure I know exactly what you're asking about? Or how exactly to answer..
How are you looking at the world that creates the idea that a Deity-Shaped thought form is of less value than an actual deity?
What measure do you expect your books, practices and beliefs to stand up against?
Quote: Quote: Quote: I feel like I'm going in circles here. I knew as soon as I posted the phrase "personal gods" that you would probably take issue with it, due to reading your past posts, but I really didn't know a better way of phrasing it. You don't know me as well as you think you do. I have no issue with personal gods or the phrase. I never claimed to know you, I'm just basing what little knowledge I do have off the way I've seen you post in this guild.
To be frank- I found it insulting that you assume that I take issue with personal deities at all and was not simply trying to find out where you are coming from.
Quote: It's just something I can't seem to put out of my mind. If I try, I will succeed for a brief period and then I inevitably end up feeling that I'm supposed to be on a spiritual path, and that I need to find out what path that is. I get these nagging thoughts that just won't go away. I honestly don't know how to explain it any better than that.
Quote: I've given all the information I can think to give... and most of the questions you've asked keep leading me in circles in my mind... I'd be glad to provide more information if I had it, but as I've already said, I'm feeling directionless and I've given you everything I consciously know, as of right now.
Thus, without anything more to go on, read. Try source texts and good luck. |
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Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:40 pm
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TeaDidikai Daffodil the Destroyer It's just a feeling.. something happened to me a while back that I don't wish to discuss, and ever since then, if I try to go about my business without worrying about spiritual matters or finding my path... I just keep seeing things that bring it back into my mind - it creates feelings that I can't ignore. What things bring it back to mind?
Quote: Quote: Honestly, most of it... I've always found Greek, Egyptian and Norse mythology to be the most interesting of all, but I don't think I've ever experienced a real connection with any of it... at least, nothing that seems to resonate deeply within me. Ah good. All open cultures. Major plus. Which ones come to mind most?
Quote: Quote: I don't think so - I think it just stems from the feelings I've been having that I mentioned above - feelings that there's a path I'm supposed to be on, but no matter what I've tried or how much or how hard I've attempted to meditate, I can't get any closer than just a vague sense that there's "something" speaking to me in a manner I can't quite understand yet. Edit: Actually, I should clarify... it's really more the nature of the feeling that's vague, than the feeling itself... It's quite persistent at times, so its actual existence isn't that vague. How do you judge what "should" be? What you "should" feel?
Quote: Quote: Again, I never said I thought any of it was necessarily "correct" for me - I did state that I have been working with the only tools I know of, and whether or not they are the ones I "should" be using they are the only ones I have. Again, this is why I am asking for other advice from other sources. So the actual answer is "because it is popular"? I mean- you have easy access to the sources, you have access to information on other cultures- you named three cultures that have very solid ecstatic traditions and you're working with pop-paganism because it was introduced by a friend- correct?
I tried to make it clear from the beginning that I'm not interested in being a fluffy bunny and doing things just because they count as "pop paganism" but seeing as I'm looking for some direction and help figuring out what I'm feeling I don't just automatically know what to do and what to stay away from. I don't know if it's your intention, but honestly some of your statements are coming across as mocking me for searching for truth.
Quote: If you are interested in the Norse, Greeks and Egyptians- you know a bit about them, finding their traditions aren't too hard.
Quote: Quote: What do you mean how do I define real? It's something that exists - a personal relationship with whatever higher power I'm called by - something that isn't just something I imagined in my head and thought was real just because I wanted it to be. Why exclude self-generated experiences from reality? Heck! You could go and make a deity shaped thought form and that would be as real as any other non-corporeal being.
Quote: Quote: Quote: And what standards are you holding for the things that influence you? I'm sorry, I'm not sure I know exactly what you're asking about? Or how exactly to answer.. You point out that you cannot tell good sources from bad. You also seem to be having a hard time defining what is real and what is not. You do not seem to grasp the differences between real, objective, fake and subjective. How are you looking at the world that creates the idea that a Deity-Shaped thought form is of less value than an actual deity? What measure do you expect your books, practices and beliefs to stand up against?
Firstly, there's the side that I was taught by Christianity - both by the church I attended growing up and by the Christians I spent time with during high school. Christianity drilled many things into my head that I've had a hard time letting go of (it's taken five years just to grow to the sad little point that I'm at now), and above all it made me fearful. I don't feel a personal relationship with the Christian version of "God" and I never really did. I heard from all sides of the Christian spectrum, however (and even some people from outside it), that it is sinful, disrespectful and plain wrong to go inventing one's own religion, especially a deity that exists solely within one's own mind.
Secondly, there's the more personal side of things that existed prior to my Christian period and was shoved under the rug during it. I have felt that "the divine," or "logos," whatever that is, presents itself to each person in a manner that said person can best understand and relate to. It might appear as YHVH, the Greek pantheon, the Hindu pantheon, or any number of other faces including scientific principle. Any way I try to look at it, even a deity whose form was created inside my own mind is still a representation of something that is conscious and extant as its own "self" - I suppose that's why I have a difficult time accepting something like a "deity-shaped thought form".
It's hard for me to reconcile these beliefs with each other, because I feel that, while logos may be presenting itself to me in a form that doesn't already exist in researchable religion (which, I think would be what you're describing), I simply don't know how to recognize that form without using some kind of communicational tool - meditation, divination, or something. I am very skeptical of everything that I manage to come up with, because I don't want to lead myself down another false path (maybe 'false' isn't the right word in general, but in reference to whatever truth I am meant to discover), but I am afraid that unless I am able to find some way to solidify the reality of whomever I'm communicating with, I will never be able to accept anything.
As for what constitutes this "solidity" I don't think I will know for sure until I feel it.
Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: I feel like I'm going in circles here. I knew as soon as I posted the phrase "personal gods" that you would probably take issue with it, due to reading your past posts, but I really didn't know a better way of phrasing it. You don't know me as well as you think you do. I have no issue with personal gods or the phrase. I never claimed to know you, I'm just basing what little knowledge I do have off the way I've seen you post in this guild. Which isn't a smart thing to do. A little more digging (such as the first post in my Pathways thread) clearly shows that my opinions and what I post in the guild are not always one and the same. To be frank- I found it insulting that you assume that I take issue with personal deities at all and was not simply trying to find out where you are coming from.
Quote: Quote: It's just something I can't seem to put out of my mind. If I try, I will succeed for a brief period and then I inevitably end up feeling that I'm supposed to be on a spiritual path, and that I need to find out what path that is. I get these nagging thoughts that just won't go away. I honestly don't know how to explain it any better than that. Were it me- I would be telling them to ******** off until they can communicate with me properly.
Quote: Quote: I've given all the information I can think to give... and most of the questions you've asked keep leading me in circles in my mind... I'd be glad to provide more information if I had it, but as I've already said, I'm feeling directionless and I've given you everything I consciously know, as of right now. Well, according to your first post- there is information you simply do not want to give. Thus, without anything more to go on, read. Try source texts and good luck.
Thanks for your help so far, and sorry to have offended - it wasn't my intention in the least.
Also, I don't know if it's important or just some peripheral unrelated issue... but I keep feeling the strong urge to take a lot of baths - not for the purpose of washing myself 2 or 3 times a day, but just to go sit in the hot water and do my searching there. |
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Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:32 am
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Daffodil the Destroyer I've had the feeling arise after I saw a Christian billboard while driving down the road, after glancing at a pagan bumper sticker I saw on someone's car, and when reading pretty much anything of any origin, I often come across phrases that make something inside me stir a bit, like I'm being given "signs" that it's time to make something of my spirituality, and find a path that works for me.
Have you recorded what the things that triggered you were (word for word) and explicitly what emotion they engendered? If so, what pattern do you see between emotion and trigger?
Daffodil the Destroyer The only time it really stops bothering me is when I'm actively searching - including asking, researching, reading, trying (meditating, etc)... and the searching itself has become almost obsessive.
It took me six years to get from "I'm looking" to "I worship these gods" and even longer to "I actually understand some of the culture these gods are bringing me into".
Daffodil the Destroyer Greek and Egyptian are about equal really, but I've not been able to tell yet if it's just out of sheer fascination or if I have a more personal connection with it.
Have you spoken at all with Kemetic and Asatru reconstructionists? Have you read the myths form either tradition in as close to their original form as you can get?
Daffodil the Destroyer I don't really know where you got the idea that I've done anything just because it's "popular". I don't know how many times I can explain that I've simply been using what I have been told can work. Its popularity has no influence on me except that perhaps the more "popular" methods are more well-publicized, so they're what I have more information on.
Well, you imply that you've tried those methods and they don't work... at least for you.
If you could give an actual run-down of what you know and where you got it from, that would help a lot. None of us here have lived your life; we don't know your assumptions, attempts, and skills. I came to paganism after grounding myself thoroughly in anthropology an experience with an Incan shaman, so my approach to pathwalking (what others MIGHT call astral travel) is based on a very different and specific foundation.
Go over the basic techniques you've tired, explicitly.
Daffodil the Destroyer I'm looking for some direction and help figuring out what I'm feeling I don't just automatically know what to do and what to stay away from. I don't know if it's your intention, but honestly some of your statements are coming across as mocking me for searching for truth.
Why do you want outside direction? Why do you want outside approval? What do you think you can get externally that doesn't exist internally? Why are in depth questions coming across as mockery to you - what is that internal dynamic?
Daffodil the Destroyer But is simple research going to be enough to let me know if one is speaking to me without making some sort of personal contact with what- or whom- ever I feel calling me?
What else do you think could?
Daffodil the Destroyer I don't understand how I could possibly be having a relationship, a real religion, a real spirituality, with a creation of my own imagination. The concept is foreign to me and, in fact, I've been taught all my life that it's terribly wrong to worship a deity that I've created myself.
Well, it sounds like you've got some assumptions from Christianity there.
I know someone who, for quite a long while, had a deep, abiding, faithful relationship with The Unicorn from Roger Zelazney's books. She was fully aware that The Unicorn was fictional, but she gave her devotions faithfully to it. We discussed it once, and she said it was like training wheels for gods; she was terrified of doing things wrong, frightened of the responsibility inherent in a relationship with gods - who can be incredibly demanding - but she needed a tie to the incorporeal and spiritual for the purpose of prayer and reflection and learning.
Daffodil the Destroyer I have felt that "the divine," or "logos," whatever that is, presents itself to each person in a manner that said person can best understand and relate to. It might appear as YHVH, the Greek pantheon, the Hindu pantheon, or any number of other faces including scientific principle. Any way I try to look at it, even a deity whose form was created inside my own mind is still a representation of something that is conscious and extant as its own "self" - I suppose that's why I have a difficult time accepting something like a "deity-shaped thought form".
I'm confused... if "the divine" is in everything, including scientific principles which are invented by humans, why isn't it in a deity-shaped thought form? Science is invented by humans. Deity shaped thought forms are invented by humans. Why are those two things different to you?
Daffodil the Destroyer I am very skeptical of everything that I manage to come up with, because I don't want to lead myself down another false path (maybe 'false' isn't the right word in general, but in reference to whatever truth I am meant to discover), but I am afraid that unless I am able to find some way to solidify the reality of whomever I'm communicating with, I will never be able to accept anything. As for what constitutes this "solidity" I don't think I will know for sure until I feel it.
Why do you assume there is a path you are "meant" for? What does "false path" mean? Why does your experiences with Christianity qualify as such? What does "solidify" mean to you? Have you done any research in the areas of Joseph Campbell's multicultural studies and the concepts of "transparent" versus "concertized" religions?
Daffodil the Destroyer I feel like I'm going in circles here.[/qote] Are you sure it isn't a spiral? Daffodil the Destroyer What I meant was that your replies to people always challenge every small part of whatever they believe, think they believe, and the manner in which they try to explain their positions. My meaning wasn't that you necessarily had issues with "personal deities" themselves, but that I knew you would question my usage of the term, and that I had been unsure of how else to word it originally. This questioning is a good thing, yes? You wanted help clarifying your thoughts, right? Of did you want someone to sweep in and take up the authority-place that leaving your style of Christianity left in you - to tell you what to do to give you the experience you desire? Daffodil the Destroyer This is what I'm inclined to do naturally, but I still have residual fear of God/gods left from my Christian indoctrination. I am afraid with every fiber of my being that I am going to offend the very deity with whom I should have a relationship. Then avoid gods with touchy and picky natures. Pick one or two that is more forgiving - Thor, for example. Daffodil the Destroyer I'd be glad to provide more information if I had it, but as I've already said, I'm feeling directionless and I've given you everything I consciously know, as of right now. Other people cannot be your lodestone in this. Other people can not be you guide in this. Other people can ask you to clarify where you are, but other people cannot tell you where to go in this. Period. Full stop. None of us rule or lead each other. Daffodil the Destroyer There's really not a lot of information I don't want to give, in fact very little of it is that personal as of now, but some of it just seemed too long-winded and possibly off-topic, and some of it is also due to the way my mind works. I think in very abstract ways about everything and it's always been difficult for me to get my thoughts and feelings to really clarify themselves sufficiently for me to explain them to someone else. You created a thread about you and your attempts at spirituality - how is your experiences off topic? Daffodil the Destroyer Also, I don't know if it's important or just some peripheral unrelated issue... but I keep feeling the strong urge to take a lot of baths - not for the purpose of washing myself 2 or 3 times a day, but just to go sit in the hot water and do my searching there. You are doing this, yes? Other questions: Why are you assuming that the ones calling you are gods? What is a god, to you? What do you know about non-god spiritual beings? Do you know where astral travel comes from? Do you know it's costs and it's benefits? How do those costs and benefits apply to you? |
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Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:55 pm
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Deoridhe Daffodil the Destroyer I've had the feeling arise after I saw a Christian billboard while driving down the road, after glancing at a pagan bumper sticker I saw on someone's car, and when reading pretty much anything of any origin, I often come across phrases that make something inside me stir a bit, like I'm being given "signs" that it's time to make something of my spirituality, and find a path that works for me. Have you recorded what the things that triggered you were (word for word) and explicitly what emotion they engendered? If so, what pattern do you see between emotion and trigger?
Quote: Daffodil the Destroyer The only time it really stops bothering me is when I'm actively searching - including asking, researching, reading, trying (meditating, etc)... and the searching itself has become almost obsessive. It took me six years to get from "I'm looking" to "I worship these gods" and even longer to "I actually understand some of the culture these gods are bringing me into".
Quote: Daffodil the Destroyer Greek and Egyptian are about equal really, but I've not been able to tell yet if it's just out of sheer fascination or if I have a more personal connection with it. Have you spoken at all with Kemetic and Asatru reconstructionists? Have you read the myths form either tradition in as close to their original form as you can get?
It seemed like it would help me to kind of clear out the snakes in my head that my old religion left there. I need something to help me weed through what is in my heart and mind naturally and the fears and predispositions that Christianity created in me. I've not spoken with anyone about Kemetic or Asatru reconstructionism in particular, but I have been talking to a couple different friends about how they found their particular paths. I do know a Kemetic reconstructionist, though I haven't spoken to her in years - she'll probably be the first person I go to for information about Kemetic religion.
Quote: Daffodil the Destroyer I don't really know where you got the idea that I've done anything just because it's "popular". I don't know how many times I can explain that I've simply been using what I have been told can work. Its popularity has no influence on me except that perhaps the more "popular" methods are more well-publicized, so they're what I have more information on. Well, you imply that you've tried those methods and they don't work... at least for you. If you could give an actual run-down of what you know and where you got it from, that would help a lot. None of us here have lived your life; we don't know your assumptions, attempts, and skills. I came to paganism after grounding myself thoroughly in anthropology an experience with an Incan shaman, so my approach to pathwalking (what others MIGHT call astral travel) is based on a very different and specific foundation. Go over the basic techniques you've tired, explicitly.
Well, to give a basic idea of my family history, which I guess might influence my ability to do these things - my mother's side of the family is mostly from Ireland - her father is full-blooded Irish and those in his grandmother's generation were immigrants to America. There has always been a touch of what my family refers to as "fae" running through us - my great great grandmother could read palms (it was a natural gift - she didn't study it, she could just do it), and she would always know when "Sonny" (my grandfather) was coming for a surprise visit and would prepare his favourite meal.
My grandfather has a similar habit - if I come to his house, I will invariably be looking for some small odd thing - perhaps some type of food or an object of some kind - and he nearly always has it, even if it's something he doesn't normally keep in the house. I'm not sure about my mother's experience with "fae" but I am pretty sure that she has at least a touch of it, and I have always been told I have a bit of it as well. I have had a few semi-prophetic dreams in the past, but only when I was a child. I have heard that when people age, they often lose abilities like this because people tell them that they aren't "real," and I suspect that is what happened to me, because my father is very skeptical and rather harsh in his tendency to expect everyone else to agree with him.
I feel drawn towards divinatory implements such as tarot and futhark runes (for insight, not prediction), and I think it might be something I can use to help me reconnect to that sense I used to have. As far as astral travel goes, I've tried every method I've seen - all of them involve relaxing first, of course, and after that, I've tried the invisible ladder technique - imagining a ladder coming out of my third eye and climbing it out of my body, the sit-up technique - simply relaxing and then sitting up while leaving my body laying down, and the Monroe Technique (overview here).
As for meditation, I've tried focusing my attention on a flame, visualisation involving, to paraphrase, "going to my happy place," and meditations that involve visualising myself climbing up or down stairs in order to try to reach a different level of consciousness. I have a tendency to get frustrated with these things very easily when I continue losing focus, and then I just push them to the side for a while and try to pick them back up later. This is probably nothing but shooting myself in the foot, because I'm not going to get better if I don't practice, but it leads me to believe that I simply might not be ready to use these methods yet, because I haven't learned to control my mind.
Quote: Daffodil the Destroyer I'm looking for some direction and help figuring out what I'm feeling I don't just automatically know what to do and what to stay away from. I don't know if it's your intention, but honestly some of your statements are coming across as mocking me for searching for truth. Why do you want outside direction? Why do you want outside approval? What do you think you can get externally that doesn't exist internally? Why are in depth questions coming across as mockery to you - what is that internal dynamic?
I came here looking for advice - not for approval, but just to let me know, I suppose, that it's okay to be going through this feeling kind of blind at first - looking for what worked for others and how they knew so that I might have an idea of how to recognize what is working for me. I admitted that I am really pretty new to this and need a bit of help and I was hit with words that insinuated that I am purposely trying to practice "pop-paganism" and that I am only using "popular" methods because they are popular, when I already stated that I was working with what I knew of - it clearly didn't work, which is why I am here. I admitted that what I've tried wasn't turning out to be right, and I feel like I'm being belittled for having tried it.
Quote: Daffodil the Destroyer But is simple research going to be enough to let me know if one is speaking to me without making some sort of personal contact with what- or whom- ever I feel calling me? What else do you think could?
Quote: Daffodil the Destroyer I don't understand how I could possibly be having a relationship, a real religion, a real spirituality, with a creation of my own imagination. The concept is foreign to me and, in fact, I've been taught all my life that it's terribly wrong to worship a deity that I've created myself. Well, it sounds like you've got some assumptions from Christianity there. I know someone who, for quite a long while, had a deep, abiding, faithful relationship with The Unicorn from Roger Zelazney's books. She was fully aware that The Unicorn was fictional, but she gave her devotions faithfully to it. We discussed it once, and she said it was like training wheels for gods; she was terrified of doing things wrong, frightened of the responsibility inherent in a relationship with gods - who can be incredibly demanding - but she needed a tie to the incorporeal and spiritual for the purpose of prayer and reflection and learning.
Quote: Daffodil the Destroyer I have felt that "the divine," or "logos," whatever that is, presents itself to each person in a manner that said person can best understand and relate to. It might appear as YHVH, the Greek pantheon, the Hindu pantheon, or any number of other faces including scientific principle. Any way I try to look at it, even a deity whose form was created inside my own mind is still a representation of something that is conscious and extant as its own "self" - I suppose that's why I have a difficult time accepting something like a "deity-shaped thought form". I'm confused... if "the divine" is in everything, including scientific principles which are invented by humans, why isn't it in a deity-shaped thought form? Science is invented by humans. Deity shaped thought forms are invented by humans. Why are those two things different to you?
Quote: Daffodil the Destroyer I am very skeptical of everything that I manage to come up with, because I don't want to lead myself down another false path (maybe 'false' isn't the right word in general, but in reference to whatever truth I am meant to discover), but I am afraid that unless I am able to find some way to solidify the reality of whomever I'm communicating with, I will never be able to accept anything. As for what constitutes this "solidity" I don't think I will know for sure until I feel it. Why do you assume there is a path you are "meant" for? What does "false path" mean? Why does your experiences with Christianity qualify as such? What does "solidify" mean to you? Have you done any research in the areas of Joseph Campbell's multicultural studies and the concepts of "transparent" versus "concertized" religions?
Many of my experiences with Christianity were false because they were born of fear that was instilled in me by others - fear that if I didn't follow their 'rules' then I would go to hell. I thought I was feeling a personal relationship with YHVH, but I was not, and it took hindsight to realize that. I had a relationship with the rules that "church" had given me, and a love of what is "good" (which I still have) - but my most earnest prayers and offerings to God felt like they were going somewhere empty. I felt love towards other people, and love towards God (which, now I tend to think was not necessarily directed towards the God that I thought it was), but I never got anything in return from Christianity except for when I was helping other people have spiritual experiences (through serving in church, playing music in church, and leading youth groups). It felt like I was doing something good by putting on a show for others, but that was all I felt.
Joseph Campbell? No, that's new to me, but certainly something I'll add to my list of things to check out.
Quote: Daffodil the Destroyer I feel like I'm going in circles here. Are you sure it isn't a spiral?
Quote: Daffodil the Destroyer What I meant was that your replies to people always challenge every small part of whatever they believe, think they believe, and the manner in which they try to explain their positions. My meaning wasn't that you necessarily had issues with "personal deities" themselves, but that I knew you would question my usage of the term, and that I had been unsure of how else to word it originally. This questioning is a good thing, yes? You wanted help clarifying your thoughts, right? Of did you want someone to sweep in and take up the authority-place that leaving your style of Christianity left in you - to tell you what to do to give you the experience you desire?
Quote: Daffodil the Destroyer There's really not a lot of information I don't want to give, in fact very little of it is that personal as of now, but some of it just seemed too long-winded and possibly off-topic, and some of it is also due to the way my mind works. I think in very abstract ways about everything and it's always been difficult for me to get my thoughts and feelings to really clarify themselves sufficiently for me to explain them to someone else. You created a thread about you and your attempts at spirituality - how is your experiences off topic?
Quote: Daffodil the Destroyer Also, I don't know if it's important or just some peripheral unrelated issue... but I keep feeling the strong urge to take a lot of baths - not for the purpose of washing myself 2 or 3 times a day, but just to go sit in the hot water and do my searching there. You are doing this, yes?
Quote: Other questions: Why are you assuming that the ones calling you are gods? What is a god, to you? What do you know about non-god spiritual beings? Do you know where astral travel comes from? Do you know it's costs and it's benefits? How do those costs and benefits apply to you?
I don't know a lot about non-god spiritual beings, but in the past I've picked up what felt like "presences" of spirits of some sort. The experience I had in the tub was vastly different, which leads me to believe it was coming from god(s). As far as astral travel, this is what I've thought, based on two friends I know who use it, and based on books and websites I've read: we do it every time we dream and it's something that takes our astral bodies to a different plane - the risks involved include possible attacks by other spiritual beings on the astral plane, if you are not careful, as well as simply being frightened by the very nature of the astral - and the benefits include possible access to the Akashic records, possible spiritual guides and/or teachers, and on the lighter side, the ability to visit very beautiful places. |
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Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:15 pm
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Daffodil the Destroyer Did you ever get the feeling that you were just... I suppose, falling behind? I know 22 is still young, but it seems like so many people found what they perceive as their "true calling" much earlier - I thought I'd found mine too but I was sadly mistaken, and I have this feeling like I've been absent from class from a long time and it makes me feel like I need tutoring to catch up so I don't fail the final exam.
Sometimes, but think of it this way - if you accept that each person has their own "path", why do you reject that each person has their own time?
Daffodil the Destroyer Deoridhe Have you spoken at all with Kemetic and Asatru reconstructionists? Have you read the myths form either tradition in as close to their original form as you can get? Not recently, as college has been keeping me extremely busy for the past five years, but when I was younger - middle school and the first half of high school I would ravenously read mythology. I just started setting aside some time for reading, though, and I've decided to start somewhere closer to what I suppose is my "home base" of Christianity. I'm reading Jesus Christ: Sun of God which is about ancient cosmology and how it pertains to Christian symbolism.
We missed each other somehow. When I say "As close to their original form as you can get," I mean, in the example of Christianity, getting a couple highly reputable translations from the original languages (not the Vulgate) and reading and comparing them. When I decided to be Asatru, I bought two good translations of the Eddas, and I've since added a third. I return to them all the time. They speak to me.
The book you're referring to is either a secondary (with footnotes) or tertiary (without footnotes) source. In terms of dealing with the basic aspects of a religion, it's poor, because you are getting the original material through at least one, and quite possibly more, conceptual translator. Go to the original, or as close as you can get.
Daffodil the Destroyer I need something to help me weed through what is in my heart and mind naturally and the fears and predispositions that Christianity created in me.
Why?
It's one thing to remove things which are either 1) inaccurate to your experience or 2) in conflict with the worldview you have chosen, but why throw any possible babies out with the bathwater? Christianity has some laudible aspects - don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
Daffodil the Destroyer I've not spoken with anyone about Kemetic or Asatru reconstructionism in particular, but I have been talking to a couple different friends about how they found their particular paths. I do know a Kemetic reconstructionist, though I haven't spoken to her in years - she'll probably be the first person I go to for information about Kemetic religion.
There are several Kemetics and Asatruar in this guild. You might want to check the pathways forum. I'd recommend against taking any single persons word for a religion, though.
Daffodil the Destroyer Well, to give a basic idea of my family history, which I guess might influence my ability to do these things - my mother's side of the family is mostly from Ireland - her father is full-blooded Irish and those in his grandmother's generation were immigrants to America. There has always been a touch of what my family refers to as "fae" running through us - my great great grandmother could read palms (it was a natural gift - she didn't study it, she could just do it), and she would always know when "Sonny" (my grandfather) was coming for a surprise visit and would prepare his favourite meal. My grandfather has a similar habit - if I come to his house, I will invariably be looking for some small odd thing - perhaps some type of food or an object of some kind - and he nearly always has it, even if it's something he doesn't normally keep in the house. I'm not sure about my mother's experience with "fae" but I am pretty sure that she has at least a touch of it, and I have always been told I have a bit of it as well. I have had a few semi-prophetic dreams in the past, but only when I was a child. I have heard that when people age, they often lose abilities like this because people tell them that they aren't "real," and I suspect that is what happened to me, because my father is very skeptical and rather harsh in his tendency to expect everyone else to agree with him.
So you have a storng intuitive branch in your family. Good on you. I don't. ^^
Daffodil the Destroyer I feel drawn towards divinatory implements such as tarot and futhark runes (for insight, not prediction), and I think it might be something I can use to help me reconnect to that sense I used to have.
Runes were not originally divinatory. Tarot I'm not so knowledgable about, but runes were used for communication and magic, not divination. The divinatory practices of the Norse/Germanic cultures include Seidhr, which is most likely ritual trances and possibly world travelling, and "going under the cloak", which is lying under a cloak and waiting for the gods. Runes were different - they were about manipulating the magical world for your own ends.
I use them for divination, but this is a modern practice. In my experience, they are like iron filings which align along the magnetic force which is wyrd. That being said, they are less about the future andmore about the now - Verhandi, not Skuld.
Daffodil the Destroyer As far as astral travel goes, I've tried every method I've seen - all of them involve relaxing first, of course, and after that, I've tried the invisible ladder technique - imagining a ladder coming out of my third eye and climbing it out of my body, the sit-up technique - simply relaxing and then sitting up while leaving my body laying down, and the Monroe Technique (overview here).
Wow, invisible ladder?
I always went down - initially down a staircase (it had to do with a hypnosis induction I was taught and used) and now down a hole in the ground (via the Incan Shaman I referenced earlier). Maybe try down? And not in this world, but in another? I have also found drumming to be very helpful.
Daffodil the Destroyer As for meditation, I've tried focusing my attention on a flame, visualisation involving, to paraphrase, "going to my happy place," and meditations that involve visualising myself climbing up or down stairs in order to try to reach a different level of consciousness. I have a tendency to get frustrated with these things very easily when I continue losing focus, and then I just push them to the side for a while and try to pick them back up later. This is probably nothing but shooting myself in the foot, because I'm not going to get better if I don't practice, but it leads me to believe that I simply might not be ready to use these methods yet, because I haven't learned to control my mind.
Ah, yes. In terms of meditation, you have to let yourself fail over and over again. And you need to not have a goal. If you have a goal, you lose the meaning of meditation.
Daffodil the Destroyer I would like outside direction because I don't feel like I'm successfully finding any internal direction. I'm not so much looking for approval as encouragement - that I'm at least stepping in the right direction, and encouragement not to give up when I feel like I'm not progressing the way I'd like to. The questions themselves do not come across as mockery, it's the continued insinuation that I am doing things because they are "popular," when I said nothing of the sort. I came here looking for advice - not for approval, but just to let me know, I suppose, that it's okay to be going through this feeling kind of blind at first - looking for what worked for others and how they knew so that I might have an idea of how to recognize what is working for me. I admitted that I am really pretty new to this and need a bit of help and I was hit with words that insinuated that I am purposely trying to practice "pop-paganism" and that I am only using "popular" methods because they are popular, when I already stated that I was working with what I knew of - it clearly didn't work, which is why I am here. I admitted that what I've tried wasn't turning out to be right, and I feel like I'm being belittled for having tried it.
Why do you want advice? If it's your path, why do you think advice will help?
And honestly... you have been doing just popular things, likely because they are easier to find. Contrary to your verbal statement that you are seking your own path, your choices in behavior (and seeking osmeone to give you direction and advice) is saying the opposite.
Maybe that's why your "path" isn't showing up.
Daffodil the Destroyer Deoridhe Daffodil the Destroyer But is simple research going to be enough to let me know if one is speaking to me without making some sort of personal contact with what- or whom- ever I feel calling me? What else do you think could? I don't know, really.
Then why dismiss it as something to try?
Daffodil the Destroyer quote="Deoridhe"] Daffodil the Destroyer I don't understand how I could possibly be having a relationship, a real religion, a real spirituality, with a creation of my own imagination. The concept is foreign to me and, in fact, I've been taught all my life that it's terribly wrong to worship a deity that I've created myself. Well, it sounds like you've got some assumptions from Christianity there. I know someone who, for quite a long while, had a deep, abiding, faithful relationship with The Unicorn from Roger Zelazney's books. She was fully aware that The Unicorn was fictional, but she gave her devotions faithfully to it. We discussed it once, and she said it was like training wheels for gods; she was terrified of doing things wrong, frightened of the responsibility inherent in a relationship with gods - who can be incredibly demanding - but she needed a tie to the incorporeal and spiritual for the purpose of prayer and reflection and learning.
I do have snakes in my head that were put there by the Christians who taught me. It's proven very hard to rid myself of them and the assumptions they cause me to have.
My fylgia (a snake) is amused you use the very Christian imagery of a snake to decry very Christian images. ^^
What do you want to replace those snakes with?
Daffodil the Destroyer Deoridhe I'm confused... if "the divine" is in everything, including scientific principles which are invented by humans, why isn't it in a deity-shaped thought form? Science is invented by humans. Deity shaped thought forms are invented by humans. Why are those two things different to you? I suppose... it seems to me that if a deity were speaking to me as a deity-shaped thought form, that the form it took would be of my creation but the deity itself would be its own self... it wouldn't really be what I consider to be a thought-form - a thought-form, to me, seems to be something entirely fabricated and not real... a storybook character in my head...
Science is fabricated and not real - it’s a technique for analyzing data, not anything that exists outside of the human mind. How is that different from a thought form?
Leave actual gods out of it for a moment. You listed science as acceptable and imaginary deities as not, but both are equally human creations. Why are they different to you? Why is this thing that is in everything NOT in this one thing? Why has its nature changed fromw hat you said its nature was?
Daffodil the Destroyer Deoridhe Why do you assume there is a path you are "meant" for? What does "false path" mean? Why does your experiences with Christianity qualify as such? What does "solidify" mean to you? Have you done any research in the areas of Joseph Campbell's multicultural studies and the concepts of "transparent" versus "concertized" religions? It's just something that always seemed to be "just-so," I suppose... that everyone has a path that they are meant to follow, whether it involves spirituality or empiricism.
Have you never examined it closer? What does your assumption that everyone “has a path” give you that a releasing of that idea and an accepting of the idea that people forge their own paths would take away?
Daffodil the Destroyer A false path, in my opinion, would be either one that is false as it applies to me - one that I'm not meant to follow - or one that is born out of people taking truths that were given by "God" or "logos" and altering them for their own ends, whether to simply control others or just to make them fearful.
I’ll leave the “meant to follow” in the previous reply - wanting to avoid instilling fear in people or control them for you own ends would be a moral statement for you. It may or may not have a religious source.
Daffodil the Destroyer Many of my experiences with Christianity were false because they were born of fear that was instilled in me by others - fear that if I didn't follow their 'rules' then I would go to hell. I thought I was feeling a personal relationship with YHVH, but I was not, and it took hindsight to realize that. I had a relationship with the rules that "church" had given me, and a love of what is "good" (which I still have) - but my most earnest prayers and offerings to God felt like they were going somewhere empty. I felt love towards other people, and love towards God (which, now I tend to think was not necessarily directed towards the God that I thought it was), but I never got anything in return from Christianity except for when I was helping other people have spiritual experiences (through serving in church, playing music in church, and leading youth groups). It felt like I was doing something good by putting on a show for others, but that was all I felt.
Could part of your relictance to step out on yor own come from a fear that once again you will fool yourself?
Daffodil the Destroyer Deoridhe Daffodil the Destroyer I feel like I'm going in circles here. Are you sure it isn't a spiral? No idea.. I'm not sure the significance of a spiral, and my first thought upon reading this was "Spiral Dance". Is Starhawk an author to stay away from? I noticed this book is on the grey list in the book thread.
Her religion isn’t Wicca, but it is a religion. I’ve never read her book.
Read up on Spirals. Google is a wonderful thing. So is the library.
Daffodil the Destroyer Deoridhe Daffodil the Destroyer There's really not a lot of information I don't want to give, in fact very little of it is that personal as of now, but some of it just seemed too long-winded and possibly off-topic, and some of it is also due to the way my mind works. I think in very abstract ways about everything and it's always been difficult for me to get my thoughts and feelings to really clarify themselves sufficiently for me to explain them to someone else. You created a thread about you and your attempts at spirituality - how is your experiences off topic? I suppose I just thought I was supposed to stick to my "main" topic which was how to communicate with the divine... I'm used to forums where it's a cardinal rule not to go off topic without making a new thread, and my personal history and anything not directly related to my question would fall into that "off-topic" category in those forums.
Well,look at it this way - you are asking for advice on one of the most fundamental aspects of your life - your worldview. More information is better than less.
Daffodil the Destroyer Deoridhe Daffodil the Destroyer Also, I don't know if it's important or just some peripheral unrelated issue... but I keep feeling the strong urge to take a lot of baths - not for the purpose of washing myself 2 or 3 times a day, but just to go sit in the hot water and do my searching there. You are doing this, yes? Yes.
Good.
Daffodil the Destroyer This all started when I was taking a bath, and I had an experience (not one I really wish to speak of in public) that was so overt I couldn't help but take notice. It came out of nowhere and it felt like something was telling me that I needed to be reminded of spirituality. I had been leaning towards rather apathetic soft atheism because I'd become disillusioned with religion and spirituality, and it was just so strong for a brief moment that I was actually a little frightened. Ignoring my fears for a moment, I think that a god, to me, is a manifestation of logos, a personification, if you will, something akin to an avatar.... I am not sure which of these resonates within me, but what I felt was something I can't describe as anything else.
So, you don’t believ gods are separate, but instead that they are part of this thing you call Logos and it appears to people in different costumes?
It sounds like water is something important to you. Perhaps you should try starting your psychic journeys in water.
Daffodil the Destroyer I don't know a lot about non-god spiritual beings, but in the past I've picked up what felt like "presences" of spirits of some sort. The experience I had in the tub was vastly different, which leads me to believe it was coming from god(s).
you might want to learn more, especually if Asatru is one of your interests. The spirits, ancestors, and heros tend to be more important than the gods, at least historically speaking. I’m not sure about the Egyptians.
Daffodil the Destroyer As far as astral travel, this is what I've thought, based on two friends I know who use it, and based on books and websites I've read: we do it every time we dream and it's something that takes our astral bodies to a different plane - the risks involved include possible attacks by other spiritual beings on the astral plane, if you are not careful, as well as simply being frightened by the very nature of the astral - and the benefits include possible access to the Akashic records, possible spiritual guides and/or teachers, and on the lighter side, the ability to visit very beautiful places.
Wow, everytime you dream? usually I stay safe in my head when I dream.
You forgot the risk of not wanting to come back. Seidhr was often practiced by mothers because they had a blood tie to bring them back to Midgard, for example.
You seem really caught up on the guides and teachers part of things; you might want to look more closely at that. Also, many of the places aren’t beautiful.
Akashic records... hee hee hee - sorry; too many New Age conferences. *coughs* Your thoughts and opinions are reallly... not coherent in terms of tradition. You’re combining Christian morality with Hindu cosmology and a spicing of Irish run-off. I’m not surprised, honestly, that you’re confused.
If you want advice, I’d say get to your primary sources. You might want to start with a couple good translations of the Bible, if you want to start close to home. |
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Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:36 pm
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Deoridhe Daffodil the Destroyer Did you ever get the feeling that you were just... I suppose, falling behind? I know 22 is still young, but it seems like so many people found what they perceive as their "true calling" much earlier - I thought I'd found mine too but I was sadly mistaken, and I have this feeling like I've been absent from class from a long time and it makes me feel like I need tutoring to catch up so I don't fail the final exam. Sometimes, but think of it this way - if you accept that each person has their own "path", why do you reject that each person has their own time?
Quote: Daffodil the Destroyer Not recently, as college has been keeping me extremely busy for the past five years, but when I was younger - middle school and the first half of high school I would ravenously read mythology. I just started setting aside some time for reading, though, and I've decided to start somewhere closer to what I suppose is my "home base" of Christianity. I'm reading Jesus Christ: Sun of God which is about ancient cosmology and how it pertains to Christian symbolism. We missed each other somehow. When I say "As close to their original form as you can get," I mean, in the example of Christianity, getting a couple highly reputable translations from the original languages (not the Vulgate) and reading and comparing them. When I decided to be Asatru, I bought two good translations of the Eddas, and I've since added a third. I return to them all the time. They speak to me. The book you're referring to is either a secondary (with footnotes) or tertiary (without footnotes) source. In terms of dealing with the basic aspects of a religion, it's poor, because you are getting the original material through at least one, and quite possibly more, conceptual translator. Go to the original, or as close as you can get.
As far as other religious faiths go, I'll definitely look for materials that are closer to the original - but at the moment I've started to think I'm actually needing a period of generalization before I start going deeper.
Quote: Daffodil the Destroyer I need something to help me weed through what is in my heart and mind naturally and the fears and predispositions that Christianity created in me. Why? It's one thing to remove things which are either 1) inaccurate to your experience or 2) in conflict with the worldview you have chosen, but why throw any possible babies out with the bathwater? Christianity has some laudible aspects - don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
Quote: Daffodil the Destroyer As for meditation, I've tried focusing my attention on a flame, visualisation involving, to paraphrase, "going to my happy place," and meditations that involve visualising myself climbing up or down stairs in order to try to reach a different level of consciousness. I have a tendency to get frustrated with these things very easily when I continue losing focus, and then I just push them to the side for a while and try to pick them back up later. This is probably nothing but shooting myself in the foot, because I'm not going to get better if I don't practice, but it leads me to believe that I simply might not be ready to use these methods yet, because I haven't learned to control my mind. Ah, yes. In terms of meditation, you have to let yourself fail over and over again. And you need to not have a goal. If you have a goal, you lose the meaning of meditation.
Quote: Why do you want advice? If it's your path, why do you think advice will help? Quote: I don't know how to answer this question other than just to say that I'm not sure how to tell what I should do next. I'm not asking for a set of directions to find my personal truth, though I may come across that way - I'm just looking for examples of what worked for others, so that I might know what to try... and reassurance that it's okay if it seems like it's taking forever for me to find what I'm looking for. Quote: Daffodil the Destroyer Deoridhe Daffodil the Destroyer But is simple research going to be enough to let me know if one is speaking to me without making some sort of personal contact with what- or whom- ever I feel calling me? What else do you think could? I don't know, really. Then why dismiss it as something to try? I'm not dismissing it, just questioning my ability to use it effectively. Quote: Quote: I do have snakes in my head that were put there by the Christians who taught me. It's proven very hard to rid myself of them and the assumptions they cause me to have. My fylgia (a snake) is amused you use the very Christian imagery of a snake to decry very Christian images. ^^ What do you want to replace those snakes with? Aww, that made me smile. razz Really, I suppose I'd like to just start with as blank of a slate as possible, in reference to specific religious beliefs - laws, prejudices, things that make me afraid to explore - I want all of those gone, and I want to be able to continue my search using my personal moral compass and intuition to fill in the rest. Quote: Daffodil the Destroyer Deoridhe I'm confused... if "the divine" is in everything, including scientific principles which are invented by humans, why isn't it in a deity-shaped thought form? Science is invented by humans. Deity shaped thought forms are invented by humans. Why are those two things different to you? I suppose... it seems to me that if a deity were speaking to me as a deity-shaped thought form, that the form it took would be of my creation but the deity itself would be its own self... it wouldn't really be what I consider to be a thought-form - a thought-form, to me, seems to be something entirely fabricated and not real... a storybook character in my head... Science is fabricated and not real - it’s a technique for analyzing data, not anything that exists outside of the human mind. How is that different from a thought form? Leave actual gods out of it for a moment. You listed science as acceptable and imaginary deities as not, but both are equally human creations. Why are they different to you? Why is this thing that is in everything NOT in this one thing? Why has its nature changed fromw hat you said its nature was? The difference, I suppose, is that science is based in the empirical... yes, it's a man-made tool, but it yields factual, verifiable results. I can't equate that, personally, with a god that I created in my mind. Quote: Daffodil the Destroyer Deoridhe Why do you assume there is a path you are "meant" for? What does "false path" mean? Why does your experiences with Christianity qualify as such? What does "solidify" mean to you? Have you done any research in the areas of Joseph Campbell's multicultural studies and the concepts of "transparent" versus "concertized" religions? It's just something that always seemed to be "just-so," I suppose... that everyone has a path that they are meant to follow, whether it involves spirituality or empiricism. Have you never examined it closer? What does your assumption that everyone “has a path” give you that a releasing of that idea and an accepting of the idea that people forge their own paths would take away? I'm not sure... I'll have to think about that. Quote: Could part of your relictance to step out on yor own come from a fear that once again you will fool yourself? It has everything to do with that. It blows my mind that I once allowed myself to become something so different from what I really am that I don't completely trust myself anymore. Quote: Daffodil the Destroyer This all started when I was taking a bath, and I had an experience (not one I really wish to speak of in public) that was so overt I couldn't help but take notice. It came out of nowhere and it felt like something was telling me that I needed to be reminded of spirituality. I had been leaning towards rather apathetic soft atheism because I'd become disillusioned with religion and spirituality, and it was just so strong for a brief moment that I was actually a little frightened. Ignoring my fears for a moment, I think that a god, to me, is a manifestation of logos, a personification, if you will, something akin to an avatar.... I am not sure which of these resonates within me, but what I felt was something I can't describe as anything else. So, you don’t believ gods are separate, but instead that they are part of this thing you call Logos and it appears to people in different costumes? It sounds like water is something important to you. Perhaps you should try starting your psychic journeys in water. It really seems more like... they are somewhat separate, but at the same time, all part of the same thing... each god could be likened to an organ in the human body - the body would be representative of "Logos". Quote: Daffodil the Destroyer As far as astral travel, this is what I've thought, based on two friends I know who use it, and based on books and websites I've read: we do it every time we dream and it's something that takes our astral bodies to a different plane - the risks involved include possible attacks by other spiritual beings on the astral plane, if you are not careful, as well as simply being frightened by the very nature of the astral - and the benefits include possible access to the Akashic records, possible spiritual guides and/or teachers, and on the lighter side, the ability to visit very beautiful places. Wow, everytime you dream? usually I stay safe in my head when I dream. You forgot the risk of not wanting to come back. Seidhr was often practiced by mothers because they had a blood tie to bring them back to Midgard, for example. You seem really caught up on the guides and teachers part of things; you might want to look more closely at that. Also, many of the places aren’t beautiful. Akashic records... hee hee hee - sorry; too many New Age conferences. *coughs* Your thoughts and opinions are reallly... not coherent in terms of tradition. You’re combining Christian morality with Hindu cosmology and a spicing of Irish run-off. I’m not surprised, honestly, that you’re confused. If you want advice, I’d say get to your primary sources. You might want to start with a couple good translations of the Bible, if you want to start close to home. I'm not trying to culture-rape on purpose or anything... the parts of Christian morality that I subscribe to are found in many other cultures and religions, and the rest are just things that made sense to me. I suppose I might be a little too open, for fear of becoming as closed as I once was. The water thing seems to be working for me very well, however, so I will keep it up. Thanks for the help. |
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Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:52 am
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Sorry for jumping around on this post- I combined the four posts as best I could.
Daffodil the Destroyer Well, I suppose I just base it on when I feel something nagging away at me - when I was a Christian, my priest at the time explained to me that when he was called to go into the clergy, it felt like an itch he couldn't scratch.. that it just kept coming back whenever he pushed it away. If I get that type of reaction to something, like I am now, I figure that is my mind's way of telling myself it's something I should be looking into it.
I must say- I agree with Deo's explanation about "right timing" as well. You kinda said it yourself. You tend to be impatient. I'm the same way. But my gods don't always work according to my schedule.
Quote: I have been told can work. Its popularity has no influence on me except that perhaps the more "popular" methods are more well-publicized, so they're what I have more information on.
Quote: I don't know if it's your intention, but honestly some of your statements are coming across as mocking me for searching for truth.
Not my intention at all.
Quote: But is simple research going to be enough to let me know if one is speaking to me without making some sort of personal contact with what- or whom- ever I feel calling me?
Quote: I don't understand how I could possibly be having a relationship, a real religion, a real spirituality, with a creation of my own imagination. The concept is foreign to me and, in fact, I've been taught all my life that it's terribly wrong to worship a deity that I've created myself.
Different styles of Thought-Form based theology are very interesting. But only you can tell if it is right for you or not.
Quote: I heard from all sides of the Christian spectrum, however (and even some people from outside it), that it is sinful, disrespectful and plain wrong to go inventing one's own religion, especially a deity that exists solely within one's own mind. Secondly, there's the more personal side of things that existed prior to my Christian period and was shoved under the rug during it. I have felt that "the divine," or "logos," whatever that is, presents itself to each person in a manner that said person can best understand and relate to. It might appear as YHVH, the Greek pantheon, the Hindu pantheon, or any number of other faces including scientific principle. Any way I try to look at it, even a deity whose form was created inside my own mind is still a representation of something that is conscious and extant as its own "self" - I suppose that's why I have a difficult time accepting something like a "deity-shaped thought form". It's hard for me to reconcile these beliefs with each other, because I feel that, while logos may be presenting itself to me in a form that doesn't already exist in researchable religion (which, I think would be what you're describing), I simply don't know how to recognize that form without using some kind of communicational tool - meditation, divination, or something. I am very skeptical of everything that I manage to come up with, because I don't want to lead myself down another false path (maybe 'false' isn't the right word in general, but in reference to whatever truth I am meant to discover), but I am afraid that unless I am able to find some way to solidify the reality of whomever I'm communicating with, I will never be able to accept anything. As for what constitutes this "solidity" I don't think I will know for sure until I feel it.
Quote: I think you misunderstood my meaning, which is probably my fault for not wording it better. What I meant was that your replies to people always challenge every small part of whatever they believe, think they believe, and the manner in which they try to explain their positions. My meaning wasn't that you necessarily had issues with "personal deities" themselves, but that I knew you would question my usage of the term, and that I had been unsure of how else to word it originally.
Quote: This is what I'm inclined to do naturally, but I still have residual fear of God/gods left from my Christian indoctrination. I am afraid with every fiber of my being that I am going to offend the very deity with whom I should have a relationship.
But my usual response is that if they are offended for me telling them what I need in order to work with them and they don't give it to me, that is on their own head- not mine.
An example would be Deity X saying "I need a special and very specific offering!"
Me: "What kind of offering?"
Deity: "I cannot tell you that!"
Me: "Give me a call when you can and I'll see what I can do."
Not unreasonable in my book.
Quote: Also, I don't know if it's important or just some peripheral unrelated issue... but I keep feeling the strong urge to take a lot of baths - not for the purpose of washing myself 2 or 3 times a day, but just to go sit in the hot water and do my searching there.
Deo I always went down - initially down a staircase (it had to do with a hypnosis induction I was taught and used) and now down a hole in the ground (via the Incan Shaman I referenced earlier). Maybe try down? And not in this world, but in another? I have also found drumming to be very helpful.
Myself, I tend to jump down roots or go via paths etched into cliff sides.
Deo My fylgia (a snake) is amused you use the very Christian imagery of a snake to decry very Christian images. ^^
Daffodil the Destroyer The difference, I suppose, is that science is based in the empirical... yes, it's a man-made tool, but it yields factual, verifiable results. I can't equate that, personally, with a god that I created in my mind.
Have you tried making a quality thoughtform and using it to create results?
Daffodil the Destroyer It has everything to do with that. It blows my mind that I once allowed myself to become something so different from what I really am that I don't completely trust myself anymore.
Daffodil the Destroyer I had been leaning towards rather apathetic soft atheism because I'd become disillusioned with religion and spirituality, and it was just so strong for a brief moment that I was actually a little frightened. Ignoring my fears for a moment, I think that a god, to me, is a manifestation of logos, a personification, if you will, something akin to an avatar.... I am not sure which of these resonates within me, but what I felt was something I can't describe as anything else... I don't know a lot about non-god spiritual beings, but in the past I've picked up what felt like "presences" of spirits of some sort. The experience I had in the tub was vastly different, which leads me to believe it was coming from god(s).
~ahems~ Sorry.
Daffodil the Destroyer It really seems more like... they are somewhat separate, but at the same time, all part of the same thing... each god could be likened to an organ in the human body - the body would be representative of "Logos".
Soft-polytheism at it's core.
Deo Wow, everytime you dream? usually I stay safe in my head when I dream.
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Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:57 am
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TeaDidikai Quote: I have been told can work. Its popularity has no influence on me except that perhaps the more "popular" methods are more well-publicized, so they're what I have more information on. That is indeed what I meant. When I say popular I am looking not at "social trends" in the sense of things like hot pants and big hair, but at the LCD of the subject at hand.
Quote: Quote: I don't know if it's your intention, but honestly some of your statements are coming across as mocking me for searching for truth. Not my intention at all.
Quote: Quote: But is simple research going to be enough to let me know if one is speaking to me without making some sort of personal contact with what- or whom- ever I feel calling me? Guess you'll find out when you try it, no? If nothing else- you'll gain knowledge. Can't say I'd count that as a bad thing either way.
Quote: Quote: I heard from all sides of the Christian spectrum, however (and even some people from outside it), that it is sinful, disrespectful and plain wrong to go inventing one's own religion, especially a deity that exists solely within one's own mind. Secondly, there's the more personal side of things that existed prior to my Christian period and was shoved under the rug during it. I have felt that "the divine," or "logos," whatever that is, presents itself to each person in a manner that said person can best understand and relate to. It might appear as YHVH, the Greek pantheon, the Hindu pantheon, or any number of other faces including scientific principle. Any way I try to look at it, even a deity whose form was created inside my own mind is still a representation of something that is conscious and extant as its own "self" - I suppose that's why I have a difficult time accepting something like a "deity-shaped thought form". It's hard for me to reconcile these beliefs with each other, because I feel that, while logos may be presenting itself to me in a form that doesn't already exist in researchable religion (which, I think would be what you're describing), I simply don't know how to recognize that form without using some kind of communicational tool - meditation, divination, or something. I am very skeptical of everything that I manage to come up with, because I don't want to lead myself down another false path (maybe 'false' isn't the right word in general, but in reference to whatever truth I am meant to discover), but I am afraid that unless I am able to find some way to solidify the reality of whomever I'm communicating with, I will never be able to accept anything. As for what constitutes this "solidity" I don't think I will know for sure until I feel it.
Quote: Quote: I think you misunderstood my meaning, which is probably my fault for not wording it better. What I meant was that your replies to people always challenge every small part of whatever they believe, think they believe, and the manner in which they try to explain their positions. My meaning wasn't that you necessarily had issues with "personal deities" themselves, but that I knew you would question my usage of the term, and that I had been unsure of how else to word it originally. My apologies then.
Quote: Quote: This is what I'm inclined to do naturally, but I still have residual fear of God/gods left from my Christian indoctrination. I am afraid with every fiber of my being that I am going to offend the very deity with whom I should have a relationship. Fear isn't something anyone can help you with. But my usual response is that if they are offended for me telling them what I need in order to work with them and they don't give it to me, that is on their own head- not mine. An example would be Deity X saying "I need a special and very specific offering!" Me: "What kind of offering?" Deity: "I cannot tell you that!" Me: "Give me a call when you can and I'll see what I can do." Not unreasonable in my book.
Quote: Quote: Also, I don't know if it's important or just some peripheral unrelated issue... but I keep feeling the strong urge to take a lot of baths - not for the purpose of washing myself 2 or 3 times a day, but just to go sit in the hot water and do my searching there.
Quote: Daffodil the Destroyer The difference, I suppose, is that science is based in the empirical... yes, it's a man-made tool, but it yields factual, verifiable results. I can't equate that, personally, with a god that I created in my mind. Ah- but have you tested it? Have you tried making a quality thoughtform and using it to create results?
Quote: Daffodil the Destroyer It has everything to do with that. It blows my mind that I once allowed myself to become something so different from what I really am that I don't completely trust myself anymore. No one- gods, mice nor men, can fix this for you.
Quote: Daffodil the Destroyer I had been leaning towards rather apathetic soft atheism because I'd become disillusioned with religion and spirituality, and it was just so strong for a brief moment that I was actually a little frightened. Ignoring my fears for a moment, I think that a god, to me, is a manifestation of logos, a personification, if you will, something akin to an avatar.... I am not sure which of these resonates within me, but what I felt was something I can't describe as anything else... I don't know a lot about non-god spiritual beings, but in the past I've picked up what felt like "presences" of spirits of some sort. The experience I had in the tub was vastly different, which leads me to believe it was coming from god(s). If this turns out to be a misplaced Bannik- I am going to be laughing my arse off for MONTHS! ~ahems~ Sorry. |
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Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:02 pm
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TeaDidikai Deo I always went down - initially down a staircase (it had to do with a hypnosis induction I was taught and used) and now down a hole in the ground (via the Incan Shaman I referenced earlier). Maybe try down? And not in this world, but in another? I have also found drumming to be very helpful. Best pick a quality drummer. Some drumming can be too fast and cause things to feel rushed.
According to a mildly unrelated book that I own (NLP for dummies), most cultures seem to enjoy music that has about sixty beats per second the most, because - or so it states - it compares to the amount of heartbeats of an adult in a restful and relaxed state.
While I don't know what that means for percussion pieces, that does mean baroque music composed between the 1600 and 1750s by for instance Bach, Mozart, Handel and Vivaldi (and especially those parts of the music that are denoted as Largo and Adagio) are apparently excellent to create a state of alert relaxation (which the book also calls 'alpha state').
If you absolutely can't stand classical music, though, don't bother. If it's not your taste, it's not your taste. But if you have a music-savvy friend, ask for 60beatsperminute music?
I have nothing to add to the rest of the conversation, I just recalled reading this today, and thought it might be useful. |
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Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:58 pm
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Maze TeaDidikai Deo I always went down - initially down a staircase (it had to do with a hypnosis induction I was taught and used) and now down a hole in the ground (via the Incan Shaman I referenced earlier). Maybe try down? And not in this world, but in another? I have also found drumming to be very helpful. Best pick a quality drummer. Some drumming can be too fast and cause things to feel rushed. According to a mildly unrelated book that I own (NLP for dummies), most cultures seem to enjoy music that has about sixty beats per second the most, because - or so it states - it compares to the amount of heartbeats of an adult in a restful and relaxed state. While I don't know what that means for percussion pieces, that does mean baroque music composed between the 1600 and 1750s by for instance Bach, Mozart, Handel and Vivaldi (and especially those parts of the music that are denoted as Largo and Adagio) are apparently excellent to create a state of alert relaxation (which the book also calls 'alpha state'). If you absolutely can't stand classical music, though, don't bother. If it's not your taste, it's not your taste. But if you have a music-savvy friend, ask for 60beatsperminute music? I have nothing to add to the rest of the conversation, I just recalled reading this today, and thought it might be useful. |
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