Chat Thread: Chopsticks and teacups

[TeaDidikai]

Sir William Black

I've seen Tinker used a bunch as a word to describe someone whom tinkers, like this Nico character presumably does.

I've seen the term Gypsy used a bunch as a word to describe someone whom wanders around in a colorful wagon, like this Nico character presumably does.

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I'm not saying that there aren't usages of the word that aren't nice, but I am saying that those aren't common knowledge.

Being common doesn't make something right.

Too PC. I fully admit that I am not educated enough when it comes to the Pavee to know for sure that it is as slanderous as the term G~ is to the Rroma. That's why I have sent out a couple emails asking for folks of the Pavee community to help me understand.

The question than becomes what was my motivation?
Initially it was in essence to protect myself from trolls on Gaia. It may have grown into more than that- it may be a matter of principle- that I would not give silent permission to the use of ethnic slurs for another group of people any more so than I would stand by while such words were directed at me.

Am I a person of principle or a person of self-interest?  

[Tagra Nar]

TeaDidikai

I've seen the term Gypsy used a bunch as a word to describe someone whom wanders around in a colorful wagon, like this Nico character presumably does.

The two terms aren't exactly alike, however. I have seen the word "tinker" used in RPG books, describing a class that tinkers around with mechanical constructs. applicable to any race of being the player chose to be. This denotes a purely job-related title. I have never seen Gypsy used in such a way; it has always been in relation to a group of people. It is hard to divorce the slur from the group, whereas "tinker" is very easy to do so.

The important information that we need is whether they named this character a tinker after the tinkering he does with whatever, or because they found another group of people that travel around and decided to use another slur word for him. It is not nearly as clear-cut as Gypsy is, and I think people should wait to see if any mod gives an explanation before jumping to conclusions that they have switched one slur for another.

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Am I a person of principle or a person of self-interest?

Why not both?  

[TeaDidikai]

Tagra Nar

I have never seen Gypsy used in such a way; it has always been in relation to a group of people. It is hard to divorce the slur from the group, whereas "tinker" is very easy to do so.

I have seen White Wolf do the very same with G~ to be frank.

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It is not nearly as clear-cut as Gypsy is, and I think people should wait to see if any mod gives an explanation before jumping to conclusions that they have switched one slur for another.

I'm concerned this is the same argument I see with the term G~, fueled by more ignorance- in my case, I am not as aware of Pavee culture- so I don't have the authority to speak with until the people I sent out requests to respond.

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Why not both?

That's my kneejerk reaction. Only introspection will tell me if it is accurate or not.  

[Sir William Black]

I'm just saying that context should be taken into account.

I'm gonna be completely honest here: Before you brought it up, I didn't even know there was a group of people called the Pavee. Probably the writer for the MMO didn't know either, and used Ticker in the "someone who tinkers with things" context.  

[Tagra Nar]

TeaDidikai

I have seen White Wolf do the very same with G~ to be frank.

Which book? If you remember, and just to sate my curiosity.

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I'm concerned this is the same argument I see with the term G~, fueled by more ignorance- in my case, I am not as aware of Pavee culture- so I don't have the authority to speak with until the people I sent out requests to respond.

I don't consider it the same argument. "I never knew Gypsy was a slur, so it's not" =/= "I don't think using 'tinker' for someone who fiddles around with something is a slur." The example, "Ask any person if they know it's a slur, and if they don't, then obviously it isn't" would be making the same argument.

I still say that it would be best to hear back from the mods (in a reasonable timeframe, of course) before condemning them.

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That's my kneejerk reaction. Only introspection will tell me if it is accurate or not.

I think it possible to have multiple motivations behind pursuing a goal. Otherwise we become flat, two-dimensional cardboard cutouts.  

[TeaDidikai]

Sir William Black

Before you brought it up, I didn't even know there was a group of people called the Pavee. Probably the writer for the MMO didn't know either, and used Ticker in the "someone who tinkers with things" context.

Ignorance generates errors. It's what people do after the folly is pointed out that counts.

Let's look at this carefully- dictionaries use T~ as synonyms for G~.  

[TeaDidikai]

Tagra Nar

Which book? If you remember, and just to sate my curiosity.

Gangrel Clanbook, the Silent Strider's book and I think the Eshu book as well as the core books when discussing some of these groups.

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I don't consider it the same argument. "I never knew Gypsy was a slur, so it's not" =/= "I don't think using 'tinker' for someone who fiddles around with something is a slur." The example, "Ask any person if they know it's a slur, and if they don't, then obviously it isn't" would be making the same argument.

You're actually shifting the analogy.

"I don't think using "gypsy" for someone who travels around the world is a slur" = "I don't think using Tinker (note how it is capped, the way proper nouns are) for someone who fiddles around with something is a slur".  

[Sir William Black]

TeaDidikai

Sir William Black

Before you brought it up, I didn't even know there was a group of people called the Pavee. Probably the writer for the MMO didn't know either, and used Ticker in the "someone who tinkers with things" context.

Ignorance generates errors. It's what people do after the folly is pointed out that counts.

Let's look at this carefully- dictionaries use T~ as synonyms for G~.

There isn't anything I can say to not look like a jerk here.  

[Tagra Nar]

Quote:

1tin·ker Listen to the pronunciation of 1tinker
Pronunciation:
ˈtiŋ-kər
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English tinkere
Date:
14th century

1 a: a usually itinerant mender of household utensils b: an unskillful mender : bungler2chiefly Irish : gypsy

While the first is how I always think of it, if they really are that f'ing stupid, they deserve what's coming to them.

Why they didn't just go with a merchant or alchemist is beyond me.  

[patch99329]

*sigh* circle argument.
I don't think willliam black was suggesting that the term should not be viewed as a slur. I think he is suggesting that the people who used the term should not be labelled racist for using it because they didn't know.
Honestly, I agree.
Maybe this would be better posted elsewhere.

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@wing- Thanks alot for the info!
In that case, the Pavee would not be called tinkers here.
The term is also used round here for people who botch council building and road work. E.G
'why is that pipe leaking over there?'
'Bloody tinkers'.  

[sol_oriens]

I'm going to agree with Patch, guys take this elsewhere.  

[patch99329]

*dances*
My hair has layers in it, it is no longer an unsightly square!  

[Fiddlers Green]

Deoridhe

Hmmm.... Fiddler.... *tastes the air* Paladin. ^^

~blushes~
You flatter me. sweatdrop
Altho I dare say my body has a bit too much wear and tear on it to keep such a title up much longer.

I'm sorry for that Blue Rose... I wish the game hadn't fallen to pieces on you.
As for myself, I am reasonably well. Feeling the weight of some of my exploits in the past a bit more keenly than usual, but all things considered, I am well. As for future North land visits... hmmm... likely next year, I have some finances to sort, and several friends elsewhere that are clamouring for my presence. sweatdrop